The Husbands of River Song Grade and Discussion thread
- Thread starter The Nth Doctor
- Start date
As it was stated, with Moffat running the show River can still show up again. And that scene hardly captures any of the Christmas spirit.
There's another way to interpret that line -- the Doctor's eyes were always "older" because every time the Doctor met her after the Library, it was tinged with the memory of witnessing her physical death. This time, at the Library, his eyes are younger because they don't carry that emotional pain.
Much like Clara being able to tell that the War Doctor hadn't used the Moment yet by looking into his eyes.
I enjoyed most of this episode. The ending is odd. Once again, I'm a little annoyed at Moffat's perception of time. I can't believe for a second that either the Doctor or River would be able to stay in one place for 24 years. That's just not in their nature.
But it was nice. Some really funny parts. "Most people need a flow chart."
I also like how it calls back to River's line from The Library. "You showed up with a new haircut and a suit..." (or something like that). The whole Capaldi regeneration = new haircut. I like that that's how she sees him.
We'll he did say he got a new haircut and a suit when he arrives at her doorstep, and that as before he knew it was River. She says that isn't even a suit, at which point he starts to suspect something about her.
Later he had a proper suit...and a sonic screwdriver (with a hidden memory section to "save" her....because the Doctor is very good.)
Later he had a proper suit...and a sonic screwdriver (with a hidden memory section to "save" her....because the Doctor is very good.)
Enjoyable silliness. River / Alex Kingston is always eminently watchable and all this episode's high points featured her. I for one hope this isn't the last we see of her but if it is I can live with this as a finale.
The episode didn't have a lot else to recommend it but it kept my attention 'til the (rather poignant and well-acted) end, which is more than I can say for this past season of this series. To each their own, though.
The episode didn't have a lot else to recommend it but it kept my attention 'til the (rather poignant and well-acted) end, which is more than I can say for this past season of this series. To each their own, though.
My favorite scene is The Doctor finally having his go at admiring the TARDIS. "Oh... My.... GOD!! It's Bigger! On the Inside!!! My entire understanding of physical space has been TRANSFORMED!!!" 
Yep, the Doctor "amazed" by the Tardis was really funny.
I'd really like to see more of River interacting with this Doctor, they played it so well. Sadly won't happen, as she didn't know this face. Capaldi and Kingston spark off each other so well.
As usual with this era, I don't know what to make of it. Capaldi great, story meh, which is the way it's been for the last 2 years.
Love to see a Capaldi series post-Moff.
I'd really like to see more of River interacting with this Doctor, they played it so well. Sadly won't happen, as she didn't know this face. Capaldi and Kingston spark off each other so well.
As usual with this era, I don't know what to make of it. Capaldi great, story meh, which is the way it's been for the last 2 years.
Love to see a Capaldi series post-Moff.
If River died in the Library why does she have a grave on Trenzalore?
I'm still processing this.
As I watched it, I was conscious in the back of my mind that Moffat wrote this as his last hurrah. About twenty minutes in, when the episode stopped being funny (for me, anyway), a voice kept nagging at me -- "This is what Moffat wanted to go out on?"
Don't get me wrong. Alex Kingston was still sexy as hell as River Song, she and Capaldi had a nice, screwball rapport, and Capaldi was channeling something manic, almost Smithian in his perfmance.
They seemed wasted on what felt, to me, like a Douglas Adams pastiche that missed the fact that a Douglas Adams pastiche is supposed to be funny. Even Eric Saward's "Slipback" managed to be funny. This... sat flat on the screen. Maybe I needed to be drunk or stoned to appreciate its humor. The plot MacGuffin was dull as dishwater, and the production really felt cheap to me.
I've often complained about Moffat's manic, unstructured scripts. Weirdly, this one held together for me. Once it was done, I could see the logic of his structure, and the things that bothered me -- especially River taking a stupidly long time to figure out that the Doctor was there all along -- made sense within Moffat's structure. That's not to say that I liked the creative choices Moffat made with River, because I don't. I don't buy her characterization at all; the Library comes next for her, yet I don't see the line in her personality from here to there, and I really don't buy at all that she didn't know that the Doctor truly loved her until the very end of her long life. But I understand that, given what he was building to, his choices make sense within the framework he had chosen. He seemed to be operating with the mindset of a fanfic writer -- there's a hole in the story that needs to be filled, so I'm going to fill it -- but the structure worked.
I think it worked because of the ending which, as emotionally manipulative as it was, made my television all blurry. It was a very meta moment, with the Doctor and River talking about endings and the meaning of endings (which felt, to be honest, more like Neil Gaiman's work than Moffat's), but it was also powerful on its own terms, though tonally it didn't fit with the rest of the episode at all. I've been dealing with the reality of "lasts" this Christmas as well, so the dialogue definitely found the right target.
I'd rate the final ten minutes a 10/10. Capaldi and Kingston an 8/10. And the rest, a 3/10.
I'd like to see River appear again with Capaldi. Moffat could contrive a way. What I'd really like to see would be a story where the Doctor runs into River on a planet, they start to have an adventure, they get separated, and then River runs into the eleventh Doctor, also on an adventure, so she has to juggle the two Doctors and their adventures while keeping them from running into one another. It would be a fun twist on a multi-Doctor story, that's for sure.
As I watched it, I was conscious in the back of my mind that Moffat wrote this as his last hurrah. About twenty minutes in, when the episode stopped being funny (for me, anyway), a voice kept nagging at me -- "This is what Moffat wanted to go out on?"
Don't get me wrong. Alex Kingston was still sexy as hell as River Song, she and Capaldi had a nice, screwball rapport, and Capaldi was channeling something manic, almost Smithian in his perfmance.
They seemed wasted on what felt, to me, like a Douglas Adams pastiche that missed the fact that a Douglas Adams pastiche is supposed to be funny. Even Eric Saward's "Slipback" managed to be funny. This... sat flat on the screen. Maybe I needed to be drunk or stoned to appreciate its humor. The plot MacGuffin was dull as dishwater, and the production really felt cheap to me.
I've often complained about Moffat's manic, unstructured scripts. Weirdly, this one held together for me. Once it was done, I could see the logic of his structure, and the things that bothered me -- especially River taking a stupidly long time to figure out that the Doctor was there all along -- made sense within Moffat's structure. That's not to say that I liked the creative choices Moffat made with River, because I don't. I don't buy her characterization at all; the Library comes next for her, yet I don't see the line in her personality from here to there, and I really don't buy at all that she didn't know that the Doctor truly loved her until the very end of her long life. But I understand that, given what he was building to, his choices make sense within the framework he had chosen. He seemed to be operating with the mindset of a fanfic writer -- there's a hole in the story that needs to be filled, so I'm going to fill it -- but the structure worked.
I think it worked because of the ending which, as emotionally manipulative as it was, made my television all blurry. It was a very meta moment, with the Doctor and River talking about endings and the meaning of endings (which felt, to be honest, more like Neil Gaiman's work than Moffat's), but it was also powerful on its own terms, though tonally it didn't fit with the rest of the episode at all. I've been dealing with the reality of "lasts" this Christmas as well, so the dialogue definitely found the right target.
I'd rate the final ten minutes a 10/10. Capaldi and Kingston an 8/10. And the rest, a 3/10.
I'd like to see River appear again with Capaldi. Moffat could contrive a way. What I'd really like to see would be a story where the Doctor runs into River on a planet, they start to have an adventure, they get separated, and then River runs into the eleventh Doctor, also on an adventure, so she has to juggle the two Doctors and their adventures while keeping them from running into one another. It would be a fun twist on a multi-Doctor story, that's for sure.
Well, this was a lot of fun. Almost totally redeemed the incredibly tasteles, boring, awful Hell Bent from a month or so ago. The plot is, admitedly, silly, but its meant to be a romp from beginning to end. Its light, fun little adventure with the best appearence of River Song in a long while. The ending alone is wonderfully potent and sweet.
If Moffat had left with this, it'd be a serviceable end for him, though oddly not really as representative of his era as End of Time was for Davies (its nowhere near wibbly-wobbly, for one). But, if this is the end of River Song on DW, I'd be well-pleased.
Kudos to Davies for suggesting this, I guess?
If Moffat had left with this, it'd be a serviceable end for him, though oddly not really as representative of his era as End of Time was for Davies (its nowhere near wibbly-wobbly, for one). But, if this is the end of River Song on DW, I'd be well-pleased.
Absolutely. Their chemistry together is fantastic. Sparks and everything. Its too bad Moffat milked the RS story so much and for so long in series 5/6 that we can't really get a similar mileage out of this Doctor with her. But ah well - at least had this one-off.
Kudos to Davies for suggesting this, I guess?
I think not, because SITL was before the Time Lords changed time in Time of the Doctor. That means that, as of SITL, the Doctor was still destined to die on Trenzalore. Certainly the dead River at the Doctor's grave in Name of the Doctor had never known the 12th Doctor.
Good point. And, the grave was a clue as to secret entrance to the TARDIS.
My favorite scene is The Doctor finally having his go at admiring the TARDIS. "Oh... My.... GOD!! It's Bigger! On the Inside!!! My entire understanding of physical space has been TRANSFORMED!!!"
I think that scene might go down is top 5 favorite moments of Doctor Who since 2005. It really reminded me how fun and funny Doctor Who can be and Capaldi nailed it.
On seperate planets in different times? It's just more of the confusion of the Moffat era.
It is a paradox classic example, when they went there he had died and that was his grave, but then he managed to remain to die, then his grave in Trenzalore never existed, but for Clara able to save it in special Christmas she'd have saved him jumping on your timeline, creating a paradox.