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"The Holiest Thing" Released

Uh-oh, I sense some tension there! :cardie:

Maybe a tiny bit of tension. I get a bit tense (defensively) when people think we are unable to do the Trek research necessary to figure out when David Marcus "must have been" born--and that any perceived "canon" violations were inadvertent.

The issues actually were all discussed ad nauseum before we ever began shooting.
 
Maybe a tiny bit of tension. I get a bit tense (defensively) when people think we are unable to do the Trek research necessary to figure out when David Marcus "must have been" born--and that any perceived "canon" violations were inadvertent.

The issues actually were all discussed ad nauseum before we ever began shooting.

1) There WERE production and canon mistakes in STII:TWoK to be sure (Chekov remembering Khan for example when the character was not in the cast in TOS Season 1.)

2) Nowhere did I state no one in the ST:P2 crew did the did the 'canon research' to determine the age of the David Marcus character (But come one - common sense of looking at the actor portraying the character indicates said character is OLDER then 12 - 14 years.)

3) It DOESN'T MATTER WHO in the production staff made the decision to ignore whatever canon was ignored. This isn't one person's work. It's a collaborative effort by everyone involved. Thus whatever the result (and IMO) it's a bit weird that anyone concerned with the 'canonness' (for want of a better term) would get upset or try to overly rationalize (which it how it come across to me others MMV) said elements to claim "Oh, see it fits into canon just fine..."

TLDR: Just say "Hey, we know what canon shows - but for the sake of this story which we wanted to produce/tell, we made a decision to alter/ignore that aspect." <--- IMO, nothing wrong with that.
 
IMO, nothing wrong with that.
Nothing wrong with that. :)

My opinion, and mine alone, but the NV folks seem to get a little defensive toward criticism. Some criticism is deserved, some isn't.

I see NV taking chances that other fan films don't, and that's commendable. On the other hand, some chances taken aren't backed up by performances or story editing. It's a difficult balance, going where "angels fear to tread" with the limitations of a fan film. Some take the easier route, telling stories within their abilities. Others venture out and try things that may or may not work.

I think, and again this is only my opinion, that New Voyages' reach often exceeds its grasp.
 
1) There WERE production and canon mistakes in STII:TWoK to be sure (Chekov remembering Khan for example when the character was not in the cast in TOS Season 1.)

2) Nowhere did I state no one in the ST:P2 crew did the did the 'canon research' to determine the age of the David Marcus character (But come one - common sense of looking at the actor portraying the character indicates said character is OLDER then 12 - 14 years.)

3) It DOESN'T MATTER WHO in the production staff made the decision to ignore whatever canon was ignored. This isn't one person's work. It's a collaborative effort by everyone involved. Thus whatever the result (and IMO) it's a bit weird that anyone concerned with the 'canonness' (for want of a better term) would get upset or try to overly rationalize (which it how it come across to me others MMV) said elements to claim "Oh, see it fits into canon just fine..."

TLDR: Just say "Hey, we know what canon shows - but for the sake of this story which we wanted to produce/tell, we made a decision to alter/ignore that aspect." <--- IMO, nothing wrong with that.

Well, like I say (and like you say), there were canon mistakes. James just thinks the "15 years" comments were such canon mistakes. You don't think those were mistakes; I get it.

Once again: "Hey, we know what canon appears to show - but for the sake of this story which we wanted to produce/tell, we made a decision to ignore that flawed/erroneous aspect."

(Also: I think the term that is better than "cannoness" is "canonicity.")
 
To me the canon stuff discussed in this thread don't really matter too much. It's about making a good story out of it. If you want to basically make it to where TWOK basically happened in 2290s that is fine with me. But the story just wasn't much of a good one overall that's really the big problem I have with the episode. I remember canon errors with the endings to Serve All My Days both Chekov dying and "it's all a dream" ending. But in the end it's still a very well praised episode for the most part. In the end this one missed that mark completely.
 
"...the 'canonness' (for want of a better term)..."
(Also: I think the term that is better than "cannoness" is "canonicity.")
I think the word is ‘canonicity’. I only know that because I study theology, so I use the word a lot. The only other place I ever use the term 'canon' is in relation to Trek. lol. ;)
A 'canoness' is a member of a religious community of women.
 
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I see another New Voyages Episode on the horizon: "Adulthood"
It shows the young Peter Kirk and young David Marcus wanting (like all children) to be older. So they build a machine (David is a smart one after all...) that is supposed to make them older. Instead, it throws them back in time by 10 Years. They decide to stay where they ended up, and use the time to mature as they don't know how to reverse that machine anyway.

Or the episode, that shows why Children grow faster on the Enterprise...
Or the episode, where the whole Universe was frozen in time, exept Peter and David....

Maybe Peter David can turn this into a novel?
 
I won't even pretend to understand how visual aesthetics trump in-canon dialouge, nor how those visual changes require 20-25 years to take place, in a show that already features TMP engine nacelles, and whose characters are in the 5th year of the voyage, with an already planned ending featuring Kirk's promotion and the Enterprise refit.

Also, wasn't Wrath of Khan's major theme dealing with Kirk's aging (approaching 50) and feeling old? Proving the 15 year line directly, considering he was the youngest Captain in TOS, at age 32-34?
 
I won't even pretend to understand how visual aesthetics trump in-canon dialouge, nor how those visual changes require 20-25 years to take place, in a show that already features TMP engine nacelles, and whose characters are in the 5th year of the voyage, with an already planned ending featuring Kirk's promotion and the Enterprise refit.

Also, wasn't Wrath of Khan's major theme dealing with Kirk's aging (approaching 50) and feeling old? Proving the 15 year line directly, considering he was the youngest Captain in TOS, at age 32-34?

And there's just the overall common sense logic of:
1) The actor playing David Marcus definitely looks and acts older than 12-14 years of age.

2) 'Protomatter' wasn't even brought up ANYWHERE in the STII:TWoK script. If was brought up in an exchange between Lt. Savik and david Marcus while they were stranded on the Genesis planet in STIII:TSFS.

3) The TOS episode 'Space Seed' was aired in 1967. STII:TWoK was shown/released in theatres in 1982. 15 years later (and this fact I'm sure was not lost on those producing the film.)

So yeah, claiming all the "15 years" reference lines in STII:TWoK as a 'production mistake' - Please.
 
And there's just the overall common sense logic of:
1) The actor playing David Marcus definitely looks and acts older than 12-14 years of age.

2) 'Protomatter' wasn't even brought up ANYWHERE in the STII:TWoK script. If was brought up in an exchange between Lt. Savik and david Marcus while they were stranded on the Genesis planet in STIII:TSFS.

3) The TOS episode 'Space Seed' was aired in 1967. STII:TWoK was shown/released in theatres in 1982. 15 years later (and this fact I'm sure was not lost on those producing the film.)

So yeah, claiming all the "15 years" reference lines in STII:TWoK as a 'production mistake' - Please.

Well, you're preaching to the choir. We actually know all that information --and discussed it during the script's development.
 
It would probably have been better had Holiest Thing been a flashback to an earlier era, like Kirk's first assignment on the Farragut. It could then have been framed by a run-in Kirk had with Marcus during the Phase II era rather than the Scotty TNG framing device.
 
It would probably have been better had Holiest Thing been a flashback to an earlier era, like Kirk's first assignment on the Farragut. It could then have been framed by a run-in Kirk had with Marcus during the Phase II era rather than the Scotty TNG framing device.

Yes, my pre-production script notes to the Senior Executive Producer in advance of the shoot said exactly that. I was overruled.
 
Yes, my pre-production script notes to the Senior Executive Producer in advance of the shoot said exactly that. I was overruled.
I said something similar a few pages back. That would have made far more sense than what was filmed. It's really too bad you were overruled.
 
Just for fun, I put together a little write-up about the Ferengi in "The Holiest Thing"--kind of a Snopes.com/Fact Check thing. Despite being tongue-in-cheek, I think it wasn't appreciated by our team; it appears to have been deleted by Admins from our STNV/P2 website.

With the release of “The Holiest Thing,” some Star Trek fans have commented that there might be some canon inconsistency in the episode. Some fans have commented that no one had ever seen the Ferengi until Picard and the Enterprise NCC-1701-D saw them in Star Trek: The Next Generation (TNG), and that Captain Kirk and the Enterprise NCC-1701 encountering the Ferengi in “The Holiest Thing” constitutes a canon and Trek timeline “error.” Conversely, other knowledgeable fans have commented that Picard makes reference to having had some interactions with the Ferengi some years earlier, even creating and performing what became known as “The Picard Maneuver” against the Ferengi —back when Picard was in command of the U.S.S. Stargazer.

In a bit of a fun homage to web sites like Snopes.com, FactCheck.org, and PolitiFact.com, I put together a silly little write-up on the Ferengi aspect of “The Holiest Thing.”

The first comments we ever hear in Trek about the Ferengi were a couple of cryptic comments in the very first episode of Star Trek TNG ”Encounter at Farpoint” (episode 1, written by D.C. Fontana and Gene Roddenberry, and directed by Corey Allen). Groppler Zorn—leader of the Bandi people—indicates that if he can’t strike a deal with the Federation for the use of Farpoint Station, he might have to strike up an agreement with the Ferengi Alliance. Picard hopes that the Ferengi find Groppler Zorn and the Bandi to be “as tasty as the Ferengi’s past associates.”

The next reference to the Ferengi in TNG comes in the episode “The Last Outpost” (episode 6, teleplay by Herbert Wright, story by Richard Krzemien, and directed by Richard Colla). As the episode opens, the Enterprise-D is in pursuit of a Ferengi vessel. Although there had been some minimal contact with the Ferengi in the past (“mostly rumor”), there had been no actual visual contact before.

“Captain's log, Stardate 41386.4: We're in pursuit of a starship of Ferengi design. Our mission is to recover a T-9 energy converter--which the Ferengi stole from an unmanned post on Gamma Tauri IV—a theft which scanners recorded, providing us with the opportunity to make close contact with a Ferengi vessel. If we succeed, it will be Starfleet's first look at a life form which, discounting rumor, we know almost nothing about.

I am reminded of a very similar dynamic in the TOS episode “Balance of Terror” (episode 9, written Paul Schneider and directed by Vincent McEveety). As Spock said about the Romulans:

“As you may recall from your histories, this conflict was fought, by our standards today, with primitive atomic weapons and in primitive space vessels which allowed no quarter; no captives; nor was there even ship-to-ship visual communication. Therefore, no human, Romulan, or ally has ever seen the other. Earth believes the Romulans to be warlike, cruel, treacherous, and only the Romulans know what they think of Earth.”

So it seems that although there might have been a smattering of human/Ferengi contact over the years, there doesn’t seem to have been any visual contact with their species, and they remain enigmatic. Small interactions with the Ferengi, but we still had never actually seen them.

It seems pretty clear that as of “The Last Outpost,” Starfleet had no history of ever actually seeing a Ferengi. It’s not that this is the Enterprise’s first look at the Ferengi, or that this is the crew’s first look at the Ferengi; Picard is explicit: as of “The Last Outpost,” it is Starfleet’s first look: no one in Starfleet had ever seen a Ferengi.

People sometimes cite an encounter Picard had with the Ferengi some years earlier as a possible earlier “sighting” of the Ferengi. In the episode “The Battle” (episode 9, teleplay by Herbert J. Wright, story by Larry Forrester, and directed by Rob Bowman), there’s a bit of dialogue that clarifies the nature of this encounter that Picard had “nine years ago”—in Star Trek TNG time:

Picard: “We were travelling through the Maxia system. An unidentified ship appeared and fired on us, point-blank range. It must have been lying in some deep moon crater. Their first attack damaged the shields. In the confusion, they hit us again.

Riker: “No clue who they were?”

Picard: “No names, no reason. With the enemy vessel coming in for the kill, I ordered a sensor bearing. When it made the return arc...”

Riker: “…you performed what Starfleet texts now call ‘The Picard Maneuver’.”

Picard: “I did what any good helmsman would: I dropped into high warp, stopped right off the enemy's bow, and fired!”

Riker: “By blowing into maximum warp, you appeared for an instant to be in two places at once.”

Picard: “Our attacker fired on the wrong one.”

Riker: "’I did what any good helmsman would’. You did it first, sir!”

Picard: “It was a ‘save-our-skins’ maneuver. We were finished--on fire. We had to abandon ship; we limped through space in shuttles for weeks before we were picked up.”

During the course of the episode “The Battle,” Picard learns that the “unknown enemy vessel” from nine years earlier had actually been a Ferengi vessel. But at that time, back when Picard created “The Picard Maneuver,” there had actually been no visual contact with these unknown aliens. They remained unseen by Starfleet until “The Battle.”

It seems clear that like with the Romulans nearly two centuries earlier, Starfleet had no direct visual contact with the species later known to have been the Ferengi. There had been some very minimal interaction, but as Captain Picard indicated, Starfleet’s first look at a Ferengi came during “The Last Outpost,” not nearly a hundred years earlier by Captain Kirk and the Enterprise NCC-1701.

My decision:

CANON VIOLATION!

“The Holiest Thing” contradicts Captain Picard—who said that Starfleet had never seen a Ferengi—and even "The Picard Maneuver" nine years earlier was done not against the Ferengi, but against “an unknown enemy vessel.” (Although it’s a bit of an after-the-fact justification, perhaps this entire account is simply the faulty memory of an aging “Old Scotty.”)

In the interest of completeness, it should be mentioned that there were a couple of comments regarding the Ferengi even as far back as the Captain Archer era of the Enterprise NX-01. In the Star Trek: Enterprise episode “Dear Doctor” (episode 12, written by Maria Jacquemetton & André Jacquemetton, and directed by James A. Contner), the Enterprise NX-01 encounters a pre-warp-capable species, the Valakians. There’s this bit of dialogue between T’Pol and the Valakian:

T’Pol: “You've encountered other warp-capable species?”

Valakian: “The M'klexa and the Ferengi. They both visited our world. Do you know them?”

T'Pol: “No”

So, although the Ferengi seem to have been warp-capable for some time and had encountered the Valakians, T’Pol (and presumably Vulcans in general) have never even heard of (much less actually seen) the Ferengi.

In the Star Trek: Enterprise episode “Acquisition” (episode 18, teleplay by Maria Jacquemetton & André Jacquemetton, story by Rick Berman & Brannon Braga, and directed by James Whitmore, Jr.), Starfleet had what might have been their first encounter with the Ferengi, although Starfleet would actually not realize it for two more centuries. This initial encounter took place when four Ferengi marauders boarded the Enterprise NX-01 after rendering its crew unconscious using a "Trojan Horse" device. The pirates attempted to plunder the starship of items they believed held value, but their plans were ultimately foiled by the Enterprise crew and by the Ferengi's own greed. With the Enterprise back under Starfleet control, the pirates were allowed to leave with a warning not to plunder any more ships in the area. It’s important to realize that these “marauders” never actually identified themselves as “Ferengi,” so no one knew that the Enterprise crew actually had seen the Ferengi for the first time as early as the very earliest days of Starfleet.
 
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