The Hippocratic Oath?

[Satyrquaze]

I couldn’t find a thread on the topic, so I figured I’d start one.

I think that it's a given that the CMO's of Federation Starships swear to some version of the Hippocratic Oath when they become doctors.

Maybe I’m nitpicking, but I’m currently in the midst of re-watching DS9 from start to finish; I noticed that throughout the series, we see Dr. Bashir using a phaser about as often as we see most characters use a weapon. Even in “The Emissary” he asks Odo where he can practice with his phaser on the station. It got me thinking: Didn’t he swear an oath to do no harm?

More often than not, he rarely shoots anyone and then, the phaser is likely set to stun, but isn’t the act of stunning someone, still doing them harm?

Then there was Dr. Crusher shooting down Borg with a phaser clearly set to kill in “Best of Both Worlds part I”, and then Dr. McCoy working on the gas sniffing photon torpedo, which went on to cause the destruction of a fully crewed Klingon Bird of Prey in TUC. I don’t recall of The Doctor ever doing something so blatant in VOY, but I can’t say for sure I didn’t just miss something.

I don’t think the series writers forgot about the Hippocratic Oath as there’s an episode of DS9 by that very title. According to Memory-Alpha, Dr. Phlox calmly pointed out that Hippocrates was not a member of his species in one episode. But, The Doctor recited a portion of the oath in at least one episode.

Can we accept a CMO who will kill or harm for any reason? Thoughts?

 

[The Wormhole]

Actual medical officers in today's military swear the Hippocratic Oath, but are also trained in combat and indeed if put in a comabt situation, are expected to fire upon and if necessary kill the enemy. I'm sure someone who serves in the military or has knowledge anyway can explain it better, but there is a real life precedent for this.

I don’t recall of The Doctor ever doing something so blatant in VOY, but I can’t say for sure I didn’t just miss something.

Ever see Critical Care?

 

[T'Girl]

I have asked a few doctor through the years, and they never actually swear to the hippo' oath (I swear by apollo ... etc).

Both Crusher and Bashir are military officers and obviously have recieved weapons training. Plus Crusher is a qualified bridge command officer and could (if the time was right) order the Enterprise's main phasers fired on a opponent's vessel.

 

[MacLeod]

Isn't it more to do with do harm to your patient? Than defending yourself?

 

[Satyrquaze]

I don't know, I see swearing an oath to do no harm as swearing an oath to do No Harm.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

Plus Crusher is a qualified bridge command officer and could (if the time was right) order the Enterprise's main phasers fired on a opponent's vessel.

Whilst under her command the Enterprise did destroy a Borg ship.

As for medical personnel defending themselves, as Odo says in "Way of the Warrior", they shouldn't rely on their blue uniforms to protect them. During combat they would become easy targets if they were not trained and willing to defend themselves.

The Hippocratic Oath is about safeguarding their patients, doing no harm to them. Granted they may be called upon to treat enemies injured in battle, who they may have likely have fired upon, but in doing so saved themselves so that they could then go on to save many others. Its a nice little paradox to contemplate

Though Starfleet's primary mandate is to explore space and make peaceful contact with others, they are also the armed forces of the Federation, and all the officers and enlistees that are a part of it would be trained to deal with a wide range of situations (such as Troi being a certified pilot, ok, maybe not the best example, but as a psychologist she doesn't need to know how to fly a ship, but all the basics would be covered at the Academy). Crusher, McCoy, Bashir, Ogawa, et al, are all commissioned officers. If they were meant to be non-combatants, they should have been made civilians.

But that's just my thoughts on the matter.

 

[Satyrquaze]

I guess given that McCoy's working on the torpedo still annoys me, but what can ya do?

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

I guess given that McCoy's working on the torpedo still annoys me, but what can ya do?

That has always baffled me. Surely in the middle of a pitched battle the ship's CMO would be seeing to injured in sickbay? Chekov or Uhura would have made more sense accompanying Spock to outfit the torpedo.

 

[Relayer1]

I don't see why the Hippocratic Oath would prevent you becoming proficient with weapons. I've been a comitted vegetarian for getting on for 30 years but was in the shooting club at university (in the years before our wonderful Government banned all hand-guns). I'd never shoot an animal for sport but would as a last resort in a survival situation.

You could apply this to the situation of medics in Trek. By the use of force they could save themselves and others, as well as the potential saving of the lives of those they will help later in their careers...

 

[BillJ]

I guess given that McCoy's working on the torpedo still annoys me, but what can ya do?

Why? Being a surgeon and having had people on the table while the ship is shaking around him, he probably has the steadiest set of hands aboard the Enterprise. And more importantly, Spock trusts him.

 

[zar]

he probably has the steadiest set of hands aboard the Enterprise.

No... he was incompetent. He was incompetent!

 

[RyuRoots]

he probably has the steadiest set of hands aboard the Enterprise.

No... he was incompetent. He was incompetent!

Either deliberately, or as a result of age combined with drink.

 

[Saito S]

I don't know, I see swearing an oath to do no harm as swearing an oath to do No Harm.

But IS that what the Hippocratic Oath actually is? I'm no expert, but my understanding is that it does apply to "while practicing medicine." If someone who had sworn the oath in real life killed someone in self defense while being attacked out on the street, would that really be a violation? And of course, there's the example of military surgeons (which is, of course, what Starfleet doctors essentially are).

he probably has the steadiest set of hands aboard the Enterprise.

No... he was incompetent. He was incompetent!

Either deliberately, or as a result of age combined with drink.

Damn it, you beat me to it.

 

[Bry_Sinclair]

And more importantly, Spock trusts him.

So he doesn't trust Chekov or Uhura, two officers he's served with for the last 30-odd years?

 

[BillJ]

And more importantly, Spock trusts him.

So he doesn't trust Chekov or Uhura, two officers he's served with for the last 30-odd years?

Two officers who were manning stations during a time of crisis...

Neither of whom had the hands of a surgeon.

 

[7thsealord]

Can we accept a CMO who will kill or harm for any reason? Thoughts?

How about in self-defense and/or the protection of his / her patients? An especially good reason, IMO. Probably the best reasons of all.

The Hippocratic Oath was never a requirement for being a doctor in the modern era or for quite some time beforehand - just a set of (mostly laudible) ideals with a bit of history behind them.

Actually, I am put in mind of this classic 'Firefly' quote:

Book: (hefting rifle) This should do.
Zoe: Preacher, don't the Bible have some pretty specific things to say about killin'?
Book: Quite specific. It is, however, somewhat fuzzier on the subject of kneecaps.

 

[ngc7293]

It doesn't appear that the writers watched the news much.
Here is an article by PBS
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/military/dilemmas-wartime-medicine.html

It basically says that the doctors in Iraq had to pick and choose who they treated. It reminded me of an TNG episode where Crusher was captured as she was trying to treat these rebels with the dangerous transporter device. She chose to treat the "enemy" and got captured.

 

[7thsealord]

Other way around, actually. Crusher was attempting to aid the victims of one of their terrorist attacks, and was then kidnapped and ... "encouraged" to treat the rebel casualties.

 

[T'Girl]

I guess given that McCoy's working on the torpedo still annoys me, but what can ya do?

Why? Being a surgeon and having had people on the table while the ship is shaking around him, he probably has the steadiest set of hands aboard the Enterprise. And more importantly, Spock trusts him.

TUC did not have the Enterprise on some training cruise, staffed largely by cadets. The ship was on a regular mission, in this case escorting a enemy vessel through Federation space. There no easily seen reason that there wouldn't be ordinace officers and weapons techs aboard. People who would know far more than McCoy (or even Spock) about the inner workings of a torpedo.

 

[Anji]

If I was a doctor this is how I would interpret the Oath: I would do my patient no harm, but if my patient did me harm, I would defend myself.

I would think the right of self preservation would come first above all.