Yes, but working on upgrading a weapon of mass destruction is not the job of someone who has taken an oath to do no harm.
The Hippocratic Oath?
- Thread starter Satyrquaze
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Honestly, I always intrepreted Spock and McCoy working on the torpedo as just the final "buddy moment" between those two characters, which it is. Or at least the final one with them played by their original actors. Sure, the CMO should have his hands full with injuries in sickbay, and someone other than the the XO and CMO should be reonfiguring the torpedo, but in the end the scene is just meant to highlight their unique friendship and does just that.
On the PBS show the Doctors had to help the American Soldiers first before the Iraqi people. Someone outside could be dying and they would be forced by the 'higher ups' to help their guys and let the locals die. It never said that, but I am sure it might have happened. By the same token, McCoy is in a situation where he is ordered by his 'higher up' (Kirk) to do something he wouldn't normally do. (I know he was all gung-ho about it). The surgeon would have been in Sickbay but was in a place where he was going to launch a torpedo on a run to disable a Klingon ship.
There is something also. McCoy never did any harm did he? Once the Klingon ship dropped its cloak, it was Kirk and Sulu that killed the ship and its crew. Though McCoy must have known his part in the plan, he didn't pull the 'trigger' on the phasers and killing torpedoes.
There is something also. McCoy never did any harm did he? Once the Klingon ship dropped its cloak, it was Kirk and Sulu that killed the ship and its crew. Though McCoy must have known his part in the plan, he didn't pull the 'trigger' on the phasers and killing torpedoes.
But why SHOULDN'T McCoy be perfectly willing to do it? (Putting aside the question of whether it made sense for McCoy, and not someone whose job involved technical or tactical concerns, to work on the torpedo in the first place). He is still a military officer, as well as a doctor. Destroying the Klingon ship was not only an act of self-preservation, but also, an act that helped to secure peace between the UFP and the Klingons. I'm still not convinced that even a STRICT reading of the Oath would disallow such actions. Which brings me to...
My question in response to your previous post was never answered by anyone: IS that, in fact, what the Hippocratic Oath is? An Oath to do NO harm, period? Or just an Oath to do no harm as a healer? i.e. to always try to help the sick and wounded, and never do anything that could harm a patient.
I'm certainly no expert on the subject, and maybe I missed something, but looking through this page, I see nothing about using force against other human beings when not practicing medicine. Now, it stands to reason that many medical officers in Trek would be less willing to use force in certain situations than an officer in another department, but I still see no reason to suspect that the Hippocratic Oath has ANY bearing whatsoever on, say, McCoy working on a torpedo, or Bashir shooting at Jem'Hadar, or Crusher killing Jo'Bril, etc.
Actually, no. McCoy was just hanging out on the bridge, as is normal for Bones during a situation of any sort. Then Spock asks him if he'd like to help him with the torpedo. McCoy was never ordered by anyone to do anything in that scene.
A photon torpedo is hardly a "weapon of mass destruction," if anything their destructive abilities are consistantly shown to be fairly weak for something that supposedly possess a antimatter warhead.
A photon torpedo is hardly a "weapon of mass destruction," if anything their destructive abilities are consistantly shown to be fairly weak for something that supposedly possess a antimatter warhead.
I'm not sure about that - not devastatingly destructive against starship shields maybe, but it has been established that starships have the capability to destroy an unshielded planet from orbit...
a woman medic in the British Army killed a Taliban in Afghanistan. She had the first recorded combat kill for a woman.
she acknowledged that as a medic, she shouldn't be happy about killing someone but it was him or her.
she fired 7 rounds from her L85 and got stick from the rest of her unit for wasting ammo.
she acknowledged that as a medic, she shouldn't be happy about killing someone but it was him or her.
she fired 7 rounds from her L85 and got stick from the rest of her unit for wasting ammo.
In those other examples, the doctor(s) in question were in very real 'kill or be killed' situations. Jo'Brill was going to kill Crusher. Just as the Jem'Hadar were going to kill Bashir.
In the case of McCoy working on the torpedo, I would think that there were about 400 people more qualified and more inclined to work on a WMD.
A photon torpedo is hardly a "weapon of mass destruction," if anything their destructive abilities are consistantly shown to be fairly weak for something that supposedly possess a antimatter warhead.
Yes, it is very much a WMD. we'd just never seen them used on a city. But, in a universe where the alternative weapon of a starship can bore holes in the crust of a planet, I'd think you know better.
To be fair to both sides of this particular debate, torpedo yields have been anything but consistent when it comes to hitting anything other than starship shields. That said...A photon torpedo is hardly a "weapon of mass destruction," if anything their destructive abilities are consistantly shown to be fairly weak for something that supposedly possess a antimatter warhead.
I'm not sure about that - not devastatingly destructive against starship shields maybe, but it has been established that starships have the capability to destroy an unshielded planet from orbit...
I'll get to the WMD issue in a moment. First:
Again, the Hippocratic Oath says NOTHING AT ALL about harm done to other humans outside the context of "as a healer." Whether it's self defense, a martial arts tournament, modifying military weapons (as with McCoy), or the doctor suddenly deciding to walk up to a stranger and shoot them for no reason, the Hippocratic Oath doesn't address it.
Now, is it reasonable to say that of all people, a healer shouldn't do that last thing (shooting a random person)? Sure. Is it reasonable to say that a doctor would be less inclined than others to pursue an action that would kill a large number of people? Sure. But the point I was making is that the Oath doesn't address the issue one way or another.
I don't see how firing on Chang's ship isn't an act of self-defense anyway, to say nothing of the fact that if Chang destroys the Enterprise, not only will he have killed everyone on board, but also, the UFP president will die, along with possibly a number of innocent people down on the planet if things get ugly, AND peace between the UFP and the Klingons will have been lost, resulting in who knows what else (perhaps a war similar to what we saw in "Yesterday's Enterprise"). Surely those are all justifiable reasons to use force even for someone who would prefer not to do so when possible.
A photon torpedo is not a WMD. Neither is a shipboard phaser.
A WMD isn't solely defined by pure destructive potential. As this Wikipedia article points out, the real-life definition of a WMD has changed already since the term was first used. Additionally, politics certainly plays a role in how the terms is used and what exactly qualifies (or doesn't qualify) as a WMD.
The term "WMD" is meant to apply to weapons that can cause death and destruction on a scale beyond what "conventional" weapons are capable of. Torpedoes and phasers are potentially immensely powerful, but they ARE the conventional weapons of their time. When starships attack each other with these weapons, they don't just immediately cripple one another. Defensive measures (most especially, shields) are powerful enough to prevent these weapons from imparting their full effects with each volley. Thus, ships NEED weapons on this level in order to effectively combat one another. A photon torpedo would only be a WMD by our standards, today; in Trek, it's the equivalent of something like a cruise missile. A Trek WMD would be something like the Genesis device if used offensively, or the measures being discussed around the dinner table with the regent in DS9's "Business as Usual" (I can't remember preciesly what types of weaponry were mentioned, but they were discussing methods to kill tens of millions of people in short order).
Which is all well and good except that one little stat given in a episode of Star Trek: Voyager.
and this from Memory Alpha:
I think most people would agree that the destruction of a city and beyond qualifies as 'mass destruction'. Otherwise we're splitting hairs between a weapon of mass destruction and a weapon what would cause mass destruction.
I would say both arguments are correct. So in the Star Trek universe, where they regularly come into contact with wildly varying degrees of defensive measures, WMD would have to be a very relative term. When a ship is visiting a planet that doesn't have shields protecting their cities, that ship's photon torpedoes are WMDs. Other times, they're not.
Sounds about right. I probably should have said "under normal use", or "when used against equivalent technology", etc.
If torpedoes were being used against a power that was markedly inferior to the Federation, technologically, then it would be a WMD in that circumstance (if you simply remove deflector shields capable of withstanding the torpedo, then suddenly it becomes a much more devastating weapon). Firing photon torpedoes at a planet that was a few hundred years behind, technologically, would be like a modern naval vessel going back in time and launching cruise missiles at medieval cities and castles.
But in the context of TUC (use against an attacking vessel of comparable power and technological sophistication), a photon torpedo is definitely not a WMD. McCoy and Spock were not "working on a WMD", because in that context, the torpedo was equivalent to a guided anti-ship missile, not a nuclear bomb.
^Well, the Klingon ship was running with it's shields down as it was cloaked at the time. In the previous example the existence of defensive shields was the deciding factor. In that case, it should be here as well. The reason shields exist is because these weapons are devestating.
The only thing defending the Klingon crew from a direct antimatter explosion (and the several that followed) was a few layers of hull plating.
Regardless, the ethics of a healer working on such a weapon (WMD or not) are at the very least ambigious and damning at the worst.
The only thing defending the Klingon crew from a direct antimatter explosion (and the several that followed) was a few layers of hull plating.
Regardless, the ethics of a healer working on such a weapon (WMD or not) are at the very least ambigious and damning at the worst.
OR... they could, I don't know, stop their unprovoked attack on a Federation starship and they & their supporters attempts to assassinate a second head of state and plunge two of the biggest powers in the quadrant into a potentially devastating war. That would have "protected" them from the torpedoes hurled by the Enterprise and Excelsior far better than any shields could.
Chang and his crew were hostiles, and essentially terrorists. The fact that their shields were down was a side effect of a tactical decision (to develop and use a weapons system that can fire while cloaked, but apparently not raise shields while cloaked). It in no way changes their status as a hostile force. Using photon torpedoes (regular or modified) to destroy them is absolutely justified, and the torpedoes are most definitely not WMD's in this context.
When I said shields are the "deciding factor" (actually not the ONLY one, but possibly the single largest one), I was using the presence or absence of shield technology as a way to measure the other party's technological sophistication relative to the Federation. The Klingons are clearly on par; let's not forget that while the Enterprise was trying to find a way to return fire (an action you seem to find morally questionable simply because the Klingons chose a method of attack that gave them a significant advantage, but at the cost of their shields being down), these Klingons were hitting the Ent with... *drumroll*... photon torpedoes!
The idea that the Enterprise's actions were in any way morally questionable is ludicrous, as is the notion that the Klingons running without shields because of their cloak somehow converts them into victims, with "only a few layers of hull plating" separating them from their deaths. That the shields were down in this one instance is irrelevant.
Still don't see how it's at all ambiguous, let alone damning.
McCoy was acting in furtherance of peace. Not to mention that if Chang's ship had been allowed to simply continue firing, the Enterprise would have blown up and McCoy would be dead, adding an element of self-preservation into the mix. There is no problem with a military doctor assisting with modifications to a standard ship-to-ship weapon so that it can be used against a hostile force which is currently trying to dismember your ship.
The Klingons are clearly on par; let's not forget that while the Enterprise was trying to find a way to return fire (an action you seem to find morally questionable simply because the Klingons chose a method of attack that gave them a significant advantage, but at the cost of their shields being down), these Klingons were hitting the Ent with... *drumroll*... photon torpedoes!
Only in as much as it was a healer upgrading the weapon in question. I have already repeatedly explained as much in my posts. There were only about 400 other personel on the Enterprise-A that were immently more qualified to modify said torpedo and I would never have raised an issue about it. I certainly never would have titled such a thread "The Hippocratic Oath?". Yeah, remember the original point of the thread?
It's not about the weapons, its about an Oath to do no harm.
In retrospect, I have zero problem with a medical doctor defending themselves and others under their charge, not however, when it comes to making a highly efficient dustructive weapon even more capable of destruction, Regardless of the situation. Why not get Chekov, Scotty, or even Uhura to help Spock work on the torpedo? Other than Scotty, it's not any other subordinate couldn't do their jobs.
Then why did the fact that Chang's ship was unshielded even enter into it? And don't say it's because I brought up shields first; I made it very clear in that post that what I was referring to was level of technology, the general ability of the other ship/power to defend themselves against Federation weapons, not "are their shields up or down?"
The Klingons are clearly on par; let's not forget that while the Enterprise was trying to find a way to return fire (an action you seem to find morally questionable simply because the Klingons chose a method of attack that gave them a significant advantage, but at the cost of their shields being down), these Klingons were hitting the Ent with... *drumroll*... photon torpedoes!
Only in as much as it was a healer upgrading the weapon in question. I have already repeatedly explained as much in my posts.
Qualified?
That's an entirely different argument. Was McCoy the logical choice in that regard? Maybe not. He's certainly not a technical guy, nor a tactical guy. Others have discussed that particular point in this thread.
But I thought you were mainly concerned with the morality of McCoy working on the torp, not with whether or not he was the best man for the job, skill-wise.
Yes, I do remember that this was the original premise of the thread. It's also a flawed premise. I've pointed out three times that the Hippocratic Oath itself has nothing whatsoever to say about the doctor doing harm to others when he/she is not acting AS a healer. You've ignored this for some reason.
Now, if someone who is an expert on the history of the Oath wants to correct me, or if there is something on the Wiki page that I somehow missed, then fine. Hasn't happened yet, though.
Such as when the ship they are on is under attack, and its destruction would kill the doctor, his staff, and any patients in sickbay?
They did no such thing. They didn't change the destructive properties of this standard weapon (seriously, calling it a "highly efficient destructive weapon" is technically correct, but using it in this context is very hyperbolic) at all. They simply added a specialized tracking feature, without which the torpedo wouldn't have been able to even locate the enemy ship that has been shooting "highly efficient destructive weapons" at the Enterprise, unprovoked, for the last ten minutes.
Yeesh.
That torp was most definitely not "a highly efficient weapon of destruction" at that point - which is why Spock and McCoy were making adjustments to it.
The problem with that particular quote is the the museum curator Quarren, in Living Witness, was shown to be wildly inaccurate in his "facts" concerning anything about Voyager and it's equipment.
Whether or not a photon torpedo can destroy a city can not be obtained from this episode. Certainly a torpedo could do some damage to a city, but from what we see on screen, it's explosive power is much less than even a small nuclear bomb. Maybe only equal to a few tonnes of conventional explosives.
As much as I'd like to craft a post which debates all three of you at once point-for-point, I simply don't have the energy to make such a post (It's been a long week). Instead, I'll simply how I am able.
Saito S,
I consider it Doctor McCoy working on upgrading a torpedo with the intention to see it used to kill strangers to be at best ethically questionable for a doctor and drastically out of character for McCoy, not unlike Uhura not being able to speak Klingon or Chekov coming across as an idiot in regards to alarms on the ship when a phaser is used. Those scenes are good for comedy, but damage the characters ever so slightly IMO.
It's not defending a patient with a phaser. If the matter is that the ship was under attack and he was defending , then he should have been in sickbay, doing his job. As you pointed out: The Enterprise was repeatedly being rocked by photon torpedoes, it's not like there wouldn't be casualities mounting. Course, he had a staff in sickbay, but then so did the tactical department. Why wasn't someone assigned to the torpedo bay assisting with the upgrade of the torpedo?
It might just be me. I find the idea of a healer working on a weapon of such destructive capabilities to be abhorant.; I find it to be at adds with the Hippocratic Oath. But, thats just my opinion. You're right, though. The thread was based on a flawed premise.
As far as my being hyperbolic, I've been called worse. I was responding to your condescending tone in several previous posts. My sincere apologies if I have offended. The odd trolling notwithstanding, it's not my intention to come here and get into flame wars.
Anyhoo, thats the last I'll post on this thread.
7thsealord, Weird, since they work with plenty of efficiency in almost every other circumstance. Otherwise it wouldn't be used as standard armament aboard a Starship.
T'Girl, When you finally see or show a standard photon torpedo used in a side-by-side comparison against a few tonnes of conventional explosives and a tactical nuke, I'll expect a retraction.
Saito S,
I consider it Doctor McCoy working on upgrading a torpedo with the intention to see it used to kill strangers to be at best ethically questionable for a doctor and drastically out of character for McCoy, not unlike Uhura not being able to speak Klingon or Chekov coming across as an idiot in regards to alarms on the ship when a phaser is used. Those scenes are good for comedy, but damage the characters ever so slightly IMO.
It's not defending a patient with a phaser. If the matter is that the ship was under attack and he was defending , then he should have been in sickbay, doing his job. As you pointed out: The Enterprise was repeatedly being rocked by photon torpedoes, it's not like there wouldn't be casualities mounting. Course, he had a staff in sickbay, but then so did the tactical department. Why wasn't someone assigned to the torpedo bay assisting with the upgrade of the torpedo?
It might just be me. I find the idea of a healer working on a weapon of such destructive capabilities to be abhorant.; I find it to be at adds with the Hippocratic Oath. But, thats just my opinion. You're right, though. The thread was based on a flawed premise.
As far as my being hyperbolic, I've been called worse. I was responding to your condescending tone in several previous posts. My sincere apologies if I have offended. The odd trolling notwithstanding, it's not my intention to come here and get into flame wars.
Anyhoo, thats the last I'll post on this thread.
7thsealord, Weird, since they work with plenty of efficiency in almost every other circumstance. Otherwise it wouldn't be used as standard armament aboard a Starship.
T'Girl, When you finally see or show a standard photon torpedo used in a side-by-side comparison against a few tonnes of conventional explosives and a tactical nuke, I'll expect a retraction.
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