The hideously racist way Starfleet treated Dal

[NCC-73515]

From Statistical Probabilities:

O'BRIEN: Well, let's hope they don't become too productive. Might make the rest of us look bad.
WORF: It is not a laughing matter. If people like them are allowed to compete freely, then parents would feel pressured to have their children enhanced so that they could keep up.
ODO: That's precisely what prompted the ban on DNA resequencing in the first place.
BASHIR: Giving them a chance to contribute doesn't necessarily mean sanctioning what was done to them. They didn't ask to have their DNA tampered with. They were only children. And why should they be excluded just because their parents broke the law?
SISKO: You're right. It's not quite fair. But even so, it seemed like a good way to discourage genetic tampering.
O'BRIEN: Besides, it's not as if we're trying to exclude them from anything. We're just talking about limiting what they're allowed to do.
BASHIR: Like joining Starfleet.
WORF: Exactly.
BASHIR: Are you saying that I shouldn't be allowed to wear this uniform?
WORF: Well, you are an exception.
BASHIR: An exception. I should be used to that, I've been one all my life. First because of the DNA resequencing, and now because I've been allowed to join Starfleet.
WORF: Perhaps I should not have said anything.
BASHIR: No, it's all right.

That summarizes the problem pretty well: good points on both sides.

 

[Timofnine]

The Maquis were around for 5 years? Reasonably not all from the same genetic background? This sounds highly dubious science, at best.

The Maquis were from a variety of different multi species ethnic, religious and political backgrounds. One would think that Maquis would only be Bajoran, but something about the Maquis and it’s cause drew many different species from all walks of life to its fight against Cardassian oppression and annexations of what should have either been neutral or politically unaligned territories and colonies along the demilitarised zone. Humans, Vulcans, Bajorans, Betazoids, Bolians, Klingons, Ferengi… a common ground with a *definite* draw must have driven all of these different species together in order to fight against the oppressing Cardassian military industrial complex, even if those who joined the Maquis did not necessarily have any direct personal reason to join the cause other than an instinctive moral urge to fight for a just cause helping to protect those in need when no one else was there to defend them, not even Starfleet of the Federation! Starfleet captains and other officers, convicts, tradespeople and civilians alike… the Maquis seemingly had no racial, social or hierarchical system of membership as such. Anyway, seeing as all of the above mentioned species from all walks of life have a genetic ancestry with the Progenitors (including the Cardassians, ironically) it is possible that some inherited genetic memory/DNA was the driving force for this Maquis collaboration. A geneticist could have been trying to isolate this instinctive shared inter species ‘protective’ behavioural trait. I have mentioned this before, but Dal could even be some geneticists attempt at backwards engineering to a species where there is a common ancestry… Progenitor or Preservers. Dal could be some form of an attempt at a common species hybrid, the final evolution of galactic life engineered back to it’s origins. This could also explain the Q part of his genome… Q could be Dal’s final form. Q could be a hybrid of all galactic life back in to one collective ‘Continuum’ consciousness, a combined spectrum of life beyond the boundaries of genetics, species and race? This could also all be part of Dal’s ‘proto’ Organian self too… could the Organians have been hybrids before they were unified as a non corporeal species?

 

[fireproof78]

it is possible that some inherited genetic memory/DNA was the driving force for this Maquis collaboration.

This does not make the Maquis a genetic "race." So, it's quite odd for a genetic database to looking at a political group for genetic background information. There would be minimal genetic change in the 5 years of them establishing the colonies and fighting against the Cardassians to an average member of their race. It sounds like this hypothetical geneticist is looking for the "freedom gene." As I said, I find such things dubious from a scientific point of view.

 

[Tuskin38]

@Timofnine
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/the-hideously-racist-way-starfleet-treated-del.312995/#post-14353725

That screen wasn't every species Dal was part of, just everything on that database being compared.

 

[Sumire]

Is it possible that the Maquis took an emblem from a species that we haven’t been introduced to? Do we know every inhabited planet that was affected by the redefining of the demilitarized zone? Perhaps there was a colony of a species that used that emblem which was then used by the entire movement?

 

[Timofnine]

This does not make the Maquis a genetic "race." So, it's quite odd for a genetic database to looking at a political group for genetic background information. There would be minimal genetic change in the 5 years of them establishing the colonies and fighting against the Cardassians to an average member of their race. It sounds like this hypothetical geneticist is looking for the "freedom gene." As I said, I find such things dubious from a scientific point of view.

Have you never cuddled a labradoodle?

This does not make the Maquis a genetic "race." So, it's quite odd for a genetic database to looking at a political group for genetic background information. There would be minimal genetic change in the 5 years of them establishing the colonies and fighting against the Cardassians to an average member of their race. It sounds like this hypothetical geneticist is looking for the "freedom gene." As I said, I find such things dubious from a scientific point of view.

Have you ever considered that the Maquis logo may represent some form of inter species unity from the distant past? We know that there are some old Earth Native American links to Maquis territories. We also know that old Earth people have links to the Preservers... did the Preservers move the *original* Maquis founding peoples to these territories? Perhaps the Maquis logo is an ancient symbol from galactic history that was appropriated for their cause? A potentials solid ‘Preserver’ link to the Maquis which would explain Chakotay’s reason for joining the cause. There could also be a link between the Preservers and the Organians as well as the Progenitors, potentially? They might all go back a long time… way back when lol.

 

[Timofnine]

Is it possible that the Maquis took an emblem from a species that we haven’t been introduced to? Do we know every inhabited planet that was affected by the redefining of the demilitarized zone? Perhaps there was a colony of a species that used that emblem which was then used by the entire movement?

Wow you are psychic, I was literally typing that! Replied and you had said the same thing!

 

[fireproof78]

Have you never cuddled a labradoodle?

I refuse.

Have you ever considered that the Maquis logo may represent some form of inter species unity from the distant past? We know that there are some old Earth Native American links to Maquis territories. We also know that old Earth people have links to the Preservers... did the Preservers move the Maquis to these territories? Perhaps the Maquis logo is an ancient symbol from galactic history that was appropriated for their cause? A potentials solid ‘Preserver’ link to the Maquis which would explain Chakotay’s reason for joining the cause. There could also be a link between the Preservers and the Organians as well as the Progenitors, potentially? They might all go back a long time… way back when lol.

I will leave you to consider that for me. Until such information is presented in the text it remains speculative and not something I'm inclined to consider from a genetics' point of view.

 

[Timofnine]

I refuse.

I will leave you to consider that for me. Until such information is presented in the text it remains speculative and not something I'm inclined to consider from a genetics' point of view.

And I shall leave it for JJ Abrams and Terry Matalas to flesh out should they so wish, but they should be sure to consult with @Christopher first though, just incase.

 

[Deks]

I disagree, certain behaviours are genetic… aggression, passiveness, this has been shown through selective dog breeding.

Whoever told you that (or wherever you read it) was wrong.

Although it might seem that some dogs are born to be aggressive, it is more accurate to say that they are born with inherited tendencies that might, if not controlled, make aggressive behaviour more likely.

In short, environment shapes behavior.
It would be no different for a human baby coming from a family that has a high incidence of cancer for example and being adopted into one without any incidence of cancer.
Chances are that cancer in that case won't be manifesting in the adopted individual.

Or heck, even if a person grows up in a family with high incidence of cancer... if they change their diet, lifestyle, etc. enough at a later stage in their life, they could prevent occurence of cancer (aka, its not a guarantee and depends on the environment).

Oh and, its never a good thing to use studies on dogs or other (non human) animals to apply to humans... because humans live in a VERY different environment from most of the other animals on the face of the planet (the socio-economic system, etc. is an environment).

Humans love to make assumptions and have been dead wrong before (for example, about the existence of alpha and beta males in wolves - the nonsense was debunked years/decades after that same individual originally published his first observations (about alpha and beta males), but by the time he did publish the revision, no one listened because 'regular people' already adopted the nonsense of alpha and beta males).

If there's one thing to take away from this is that the general public is (unfortunately) not very bright it seems and they don't employ critical thinking.
What's worse, if a wrong idea gains traction, it can easily be adopted by the majority of the population (but that still doesn't mean that the idea was correct - majorities have been and continue to be wrong on oh so many things as is).

It is possible that the geneticist who engineered Dal chose the genetic traits from the species most likely to align with the Maquis and isolated the behaviours which are more in tune to loyalties to a cause, defence of morality etc. Good genetic attributes of freedom fighters rather than purely aggressive warrior species? Warriors with a cause.

No. And as it was mentioned before... that's not how DNA works.

I do not know how accurate this is:
View attachment 32143
Definitely Species 8472 though @Deks :
View attachment 32144
OMG how did I miss out that Dal is also….

Q Hybrid!!!! The Continuum lives on!!!

That insignia does NOT exist in canon ... aka, it was never observed in any of the VOY episodes that featured species 8472.

As for a Q hybrid... if the letter Q is supposed to represent Q... then SF has access to three potential samples (but we don't know if they'd be viable) :
1. Amanda Rogers.
2. Quinn (who comitted suicide on VOY - though he was turned into a mortal human and stripped of his powers... and as such he would really be indistinguishable from the genuine article - except his knowledge/intellect).
3. Q himself (while he was banished briefly from the Continuum onto the ENT-D - but again, he was turned into a human, and would again be indistinguishable from the genuine article except for his knowledge/intellect).

Furthermore, several of those insignias (if they do belong to Gamma and Delta quadrant species) obviously do NOT represent species that are part of UFP.

 

[Tuskin38]

That insignia does NOT exist in canon ...

It does now. Probably be better to say 'It did not exist'

 

[Guy Gardener]

It's the Augment Virus.

The Federation had to forgo all Eugenics, even though Humans were not into Eugenics for there own reasons, it seems like a likely condition of a treaty with the Klingons after they lost millions of Klingons and dozens of Planets to the Virus, and then spent a few generations appearing as almost human.

Earth strong arming the entire Federation into a Eugenics ban is toothless.

Qo'noS can make the Federation swallow a bitter pill, now and then, to preserve peace.

 

[IRW Bloodwing]

I have a query about Dal but I never knew where to post it though it may fit in here. It is not a question about race per se but definitely to do with attributes that Dal may have inherited from one of the species in his hybrid species genetic makeup.

Dal has Species 8472 genetics, this species is a genetically hyper evolved form of life from fluidic space with DNA and an immune system so advanced that it can destroy almost everything that it encounters as the ultimate defence, eradicating all things that it comes in to contact with; biological, technological and chemical. On the opposite side, we all saw what species 8472 DNA/immune response does to life forms that are offensively ‘infected’ by it - Harry Kim being the most obvious example.
View attachment 32140
How would Dal’s DNA and immune response deal with other forms of life? Was Dal’s 8472 DNA evolved to coexist with his other spliced species, hence his stable ‘hybrid’ nature, or would Dal’s immune system destroy or harm any other life that his immune system was unleashed upon. So for example, if Dal offensively or even unintentionally scratched someone would his immune system destroy said victim as happened to Harry Kim? Even if the species that Dal is hybrid of are safe from the 8472 DNA due to the engineering, what about species that he is *not* hybrid with?

If Dal made contact with another species which broke the ‘skin barrier’ would his DNA and immune response harm them? This could be an interesting allegory for Dal one day in the future, similar in vein to that of T’Pol in Stigma, though it may be *too* adult a storyline for this toon.

I am guessing that as Dal is hybrid with many species this extreme immune response against all other things was resolved, I do not think that Dal was designed as an *intentional* bio weapon but this extreme immune response could potentially be one of his biological attributes. If Dal gets *too* close to another form of life he may unintentionally harm them. I guess that Dal’s true designs and genetic attributes can be left for a future adventure either in this toon or a more ‘adult’ spin-off one day which he may star in as an adult if the subject is too controversial for Nickelodeon.

Where was Dal’s Species 8472 DNA even sourced from? I am assuming the database/biological samples of the USS Voyager.

Also, Dal’s purple colour may be from Species 8472. They are the only purple species that I can think of though the Jem’Hadar often had a blueish hue and we also know that Dal has a bit of ‘Dominion’ in him.
View attachment 32141

8472 DNA might also explain the shape-shifting stuff.

Also wondering what is "Dominion" DNA. Saing "The Dominion" is like saying "the Federation". It's a political alliance, not a race. More appropriate to say Founder, Vortha, Jem Hadar, Karrema, etc.

 

[IRW Bloodwing]

And for the poster who raised an eyebrow at my use of the term "racism", I use it in the colloquial sense of the word. "Species hatred" would be strictly accurate technically, but "racism" conveys the same impression less awkwardly.

From my observations in talking to authors online, there is an ongoing struggle between linquistic precision and message conveyance that has been raging for several years, spurred by marginalized communities reclaiming (or just now claiming) control of their identifiers.

Example (for illustration ONLY): the trap Mercedes Lackey fell into over her use of a certain term for BlPOC that is considered outdated at best, and a slur in some circles. Language is starting to take on a hyper-specific tone that anyone who has read Orwell or seen Demolition Man would spot in a heartbeat.

 

[Deks]

It does now. Probably be better to say 'It did not exist'

The insignia may exist because Prodigy officially introduced it... but we still don't know which species its supposed to represent within canon, and without actual verbal confirmation that its species 8472, it could represent literally any other species in the Alpha Quadrant that's part of UFP - someone might go back and fix that DNA tree to remove DQ and GQ species (because they couldn't possibly on there).

The DQ/GQ species samples couldn't have possibly been acquired in any appreciable time frame, because if Dal is supposed to be 17 years old, and the show occurs in 2383, then Dal was engineered in 2366 (long before SF encountered the Dominion, Species 8472 and various DQ species that are supposed to be on that list).

Basically, the DNA graphic tree is in conflict with the statement that Dal is comprised of 26 UFP member species - and the timeline for when the samples could have been acquired is impossible and doesn't mesh with his age (unless someone travelled back in time for that again - and that seems unlikely).

In essence, the graph is likely not supposed to be taken literally.

 

[Deks]

8472 DNA might also explain the shape-shifting stuff.

No it doesn't.
8472 never had natural shapeshifting capabilities, they used Gene resequencing techniques to disguise themselves as humans and needed to take regular injections to prevent a genetic reversion to their original form.

There are other alpha quadrant species which are shapeshifters, so there's that... but Dal didn't exhibit shapeshifting capabilities... his features changed because of his DNA (and if you recall, Archer also underwent very similar facial changes at a fast pace when he was morphing into a Klingon because Phlox was experimenting on him to synthesize a cure for the modified Augment virus (which also made the Klingons not have forehead ridges for over 100 years).

Also wondering what is "Dominion" DNA. Saing "The Dominion" is like saying "the Federation". It's a political alliance, not a race. More appropriate to say Founder, Vortha, Jem Hadar, Karrema, etc.

Just dirsregard it.
Its not accurate, because Dal is supposed to be 17 years old by 2383, and as such, he should have been created in 2366.
The Dominion weren't even encountered back then (nevermid the delta quadrant species).
So, the graph is a mess that should really be changed to include only UFP member species.

 

[Guy Gardener]

The Maquis were from a variety of different multi species ethnic, religious and political backgrounds. One would think that Maquis would only be Bajoran, but something about the Maquis and it’s cause drew many different species from all walks of life to its fight against Cardassian oppression and annexations of what should have either been neutral or politically unaligned territories and colonies along the demilitarised zone. Humans, Vulcans, Bajorans, Betazoids, Bolians, Klingons, Ferengi… a common ground with a *definite* draw must have driven all of these different species together in order to fight against the oppressing Cardassian military industrial complex, even if those who joined the Maquis did not necessarily have any direct personal reason to join the cause other than an instinctive moral urge to fight for a just cause helping to protect those in need when no one else was there to defend them, not even Starfleet of the Federation! Starfleet captains and other officers, convicts, tradespeople and civilians alike… the Maquis seemingly had no racial, social or hierarchical system of membership as such. Anyway, seeing as all of the above mentioned species from all walks of life have a genetic ancestry with the Progenitors (including the Cardassians, ironically) it is possible that some inherited genetic memory/DNA was the driving force for this Maquis collaboration. A geneticist could have been trying to isolate this instinctive shared inter species ‘protective’ behavioural trait. I have mentioned this before, but Dal could even be some geneticists attempt at backwards engineering to a species where there is a common ancestry… Progenitor or Preservers. Dal could be some form of an attempt at a common species hybrid, the final evolution of galactic life engineered back to it’s origins. This could also explain the Q part of his genome… Q could be Dal’s final form. Q could be a hybrid of all galactic life back in to one collective ‘Continuum’ consciousness, a combined spectrum of life beyond the boundaries of genetics, species and race? This could also all be part of Dal’s ‘proto’ Organian self too… could the Organians have been hybrids before they were unified as a non corporeal species?

You're forgetting that the Cardassians were not assholes at every step of the story.

The Central Command gave thousands, maybe millions, of Orphan Federation Citizens full Cardassian Citizenship when the border moved who chose to remain in Cardassian Space despite the Federation's insistence to flee to safe harbour.

Politician Generals stomached this decision, and decided to play it out.

Hillbilly Militia asshole criminals decided that all humans must die, even human beings with Cardassian Citizenship, which would have put all those hillbillies in jail, every time they killed a human with Cardassian papers, and tried to take their farm.

Cardassian Soldiers would have been protecting human farms, and being murdered while protecting human farms by Cardassian outlaw criminal militant Hillbillies who have no love or respect or love for the Central Command.

The enemy was not the Central Command, until the Maquis started targeting the Central Command.

 

[Timofnine]

Actually, @Deks , I believe that you are wrong. I have rewatched the scene in question. Dr Jago takes a strand of Dal’s hair and places it in to a scanner, Dal’s DNA is in turn displayed via holographic projection of a familiar DNA helix. This holographic representation of Dal’s DNA then transitions via animation in to a decompiled profile of Dal’s genetic makeup - we even see how it is all links together.

As Dr Jago looks through Dal’s ‘profile’ he immediately *visually* identifies that Dal is the handy work of a Soong protégée as he saw familiarity in the geneticists ‘handy work’. Jago states that Dal likely began as a homosapien/humanoid/human and was augmented with recessive DNA from the 26 species listed in the graphics as depicted via the hologram, screenshot earlier in this thread.

We can not deny what we have seen in canon on screen, Deks.

Now, we need to think about just how this Soong protégé collected all of these samples from the four quadrants. Founder DNA *could* have been collected from one of the 100 founders that were sent out to explore the galaxy, perhaps even from Odo himself who had been living in the Alpha Quadrant for many years on Terok Nor/Bajor. Other DNA could have been collected via travel using the Borg transwarp conduit network or some other unknown means of travel. Alternatively, someone may have stumbled upon a Borg cube in the Alpha/Beta Quadrant and collected DNA samples from all of the different species that the cubes drones were comprised of; some of these species *would* indeed have been unknown 17 years ago, but in the 2380’s a species designation could finally be identified as a result of cross referencing Dal’s DNA against Voyagers first contact database after the ships recent return home to the Alpha Quadrant.

We can also entertain the possibility that the Soong protégé geneticist who created Dal was on a multi generation sleeper ship similar to the Botany Bay, it could have been collecting DNA from around the galaxy on it’s century spanning journey retracing the steps of the Progenitors or Preservers in order to recreate the galaxies first life forms who helped to seed the galaxy. Dal could even be a galactic genetic puzzle being put together - he could be a genetic ‘key’ to something on a galactic level. Dal could even potentially be the ultimate form of galactic evolution from the far future of the galaxy, but of course engineered in the present with extrapolated information and genetic projections. Dal could also possibly have been designed to act as a common life form genetically linked to all major species in order to bring peace throughout the galaxy.

Regardless, I think that the evidence on screen in the episode Masquerade is accurate and can not be disputed unless the writers want to overwrite Dal’s genetic profile in a future episode with only Federation member/friendly species with a bit of retcon. It was *not* stated on screen that Dal was sequenced only from Federation member species, however. If Dal was a hybrid of *only* Federation species, this leads to the question of whether the Federation themselves were covertly involved in his creation for some reason.

Please rewatch the scene 7 minutes and 58 seconds in to the episode Masquerade for clarification and confirmation of everything that I have said above.

I think that the writers have a lot of explaining to do, personally. Though they may just brush this all off for now.

 

[drt]

This may have been missed since it was the last post on the previous page.

Aaron J. Waltke, one of the producers, said that the DNA profiles on the console were just showing what she was running scans for, not necessarily what Dal matched to.

https://twitter.com/GoodAaron/status/1596163142408617987

So the graphic doesn't show what Dal's genome actually contains and the timing of when particular species are discovered doesn't matter.

 

[fireproof78]

think that the writers have a lot of explaining to do, personally. Though they may just brush this all off for now.

Hopefully its just recognized as accurate.