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The hideously racist way Starfleet treated Dal

I

IRW Bloodwing

Commander
Red Shirt
Since my thread in General got nerfed, I'll repoen the discussion here. Trek's writing about Augments in the Federation has been problematic, to say the least. The Federation is supposed to represent elightened ideals. Racism isn't supposed to be any part of its make up.

The trial board didn't even grant Del the dignity of his name, for god's sake. Shame on Trek's writers!
 
Shame, eh? How shall we shame them?

I blame DS9 for two things-one, it established that the Federation is not the enlightened utopia that TNG claimed and brought to light some problematic behaviors. There is conflict, as well as ongoing struggles with racist attitudes, e.g. vs. the Cardassians, the Ferengi and the Romulans. DS9 then laid down that genetic augmentation for the purpose of enhancement is illegal and against the law. This of course brings up a whole other question of what counts as augmentation, and what about species that might practice this as part of their own culture, like the Bynars.

The Federation has longed struggled with racist ideas. This just brings it out to the fore to be challenged.
 
Oh good, I was hoping you'd carry over. My draft from there:

ETA quote
QUOTE="IRW Bloodwing, post: 14353565, member: 82051"]Trek's writing about Augments in the Federation has been problematic, to say the least. The Federation is supposed to represent elightened ideals. Racism isn't supposed to be any part of its make up.[/QUOTE]

Hopefully distant Discovery will break the saga away from this long hand-cuffing and begin exploring good things the science can do for people without the specter of Supermen running amok always putting on the brakes.
 
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How is one suppose to talk about racism if there is no racism in the show to talk about?? Just a plot device, I would hope that by that time we wouldn't have that problem.
But honestly, like with Julian, its the sins of the father type of thing, Dal and Julian had nothing to do with there genetic history, so they shouldn't be punished over something they have no say in. Can't exactly put the genie back in the bottle.

So, the law should be, if its not your fault, your parents, or species tampered with your genes, or from a race that tampered with there genes awhile back, but not actively doing it, like the Denobulans, then your okay, though the parents may be in trouble.
If you yourself submit to genetic engineering then thats another story. But even then its a "Shades of Grey" type of thing.

I've read plenty a sci fi book on humans gene editing themselves, for longer life, editing of non desirable stuff like new nose, or blue eyes. Then you have gene splicing with other species like in Batman Beyond. Generally for the betterment of the species. But then you have ones like Asgard from Stargate, who gene edited themselves into a bottleneck.
 
I have a query about Dal but I never knew where to post it though it may fit in here. It is not a question about race per se but definitely to do with attributes that Dal may have inherited from one of the species in his hybrid species genetic makeup.

Dal has Species 8472 genetics, this species is a genetically hyper evolved form of life from fluidic space with DNA and an immune system so advanced that it can destroy almost everything that it encounters as the ultimate defence, eradicating all things that it comes in to contact with; biological, technological and chemical. On the opposite side, we all saw what species 8472 DNA/immune response does to life forms that are offensively ‘infected’ by it - Harry Kim being the most obvious example.
A841B814-7E61-4D45-87E8-06639C05D8E7.jpeg
How would Dal’s DNA and immune response deal with other forms of life? Was Dal’s 8472 DNA evolved to coexist with his other spliced species, hence his stable ‘hybrid’ nature, or would Dal’s immune system destroy or harm any other life that his immune system was unleashed upon. So for example, if Dal offensively or even unintentionally scratched someone would his immune system destroy said victim as happened to Harry Kim? Even if the species that Dal is hybrid of are safe from the 8472 DNA due to the engineering, what about species that he is *not* hybrid with?

If Dal made contact with another species which broke the ‘skin barrier’ would his DNA and immune response harm them? This could be an interesting allegory for Dal one day in the future, similar in vein to that of T’Pol in Stigma, though it may be *too* adult a storyline for this toon.

I am guessing that as Dal is hybrid with many species this extreme immune response against all other things was resolved, I do not think that Dal was designed as an *intentional* bio weapon but this extreme immune response could potentially be one of his biological attributes. If Dal gets *too* close to another form of life he may unintentionally harm them. I guess that Dal’s true designs and genetic attributes can be left for a future adventure either in this toon or a more ‘adult’ spin-off one day which he may star in as an adult if the subject is too controversial for Nickelodeon.

Where was Dal’s Species 8472 DNA even sourced from? I am assuming the database/biological samples of the USS Voyager.

Also, Dal’s purple colour may be from Species 8472. They are the only purple species that I can think of though the Jem’Hadar often had a blueish hue and we also know that Dal has a bit of ‘Dominion’ in him. :shrug:
05C6739A-93B9-4079-9280-85D8293CA216.jpeg
 
Timofnine said:
How would Dal’s DNA and immune response deal with other forms of life? Was Dal’s 8472 DNA evolved to coexist with his other spliced species, hence his stable ‘hybrid’ nature, or would Dal’s immune system destroy or harm any other life that his immune system was unleashed upon.
Click to expand...
Clearly not, though we might get a "Barclay's Protomorphosis Syndrome" (or whatever it was in TNG) if manipulated further. I think given that 8472 was able to assume human form in a way, then there is a probably some minor genetic alteration that allowed for hybrid stabilization and not a complete rejection of the host form.
 
Captain Kris Kringle Pike said:
Clearly not, though we might get a "Barclay's Protomorphosis Syndrome" (or whatever it was in TNG) if manipulated further. I think given that 8472 was able to assume human form in a way, then there is a probably some minor genetic alteration that allowed for hybrid stabilization and not a complete rejection of the host form.
Click to expand...
Species 8472 did not create this hybrid though, a Soong protege did and we have no idea of intentions. This still leaves the question of immune interactions with species that Dal is *not* hybrid with.
 
Wait... I wasn't aware Dal had Species 8472 genes inside him - how do we know this?
Also, the timeline doesn't match at all given his age, etc.
I know VOY managed to get some 8472 DNA samples and log it on file in the database, etc. but transmitting that info to SF over hypersubpace would have to have occurred in 'Pathfinder' (just under 2 years before VOY got back home), but, all SF would have gotten were digital information on Species 8472 DNA... without an actual SAMPLE of 8472 DNA (and given its density), would Soon'gs proteges really be able to make their own?

Dal should have been created about 17 odd years ago (in 2366),... and PRO only takes place 5 years after VOY returned home.
In essence, there simply isn't enough time for Soong's protege's to cook up Dal, release him into the wild so he would eventually end up with Nandi and finally at Tars Lamora thousands of LY's away in the DQ.

If he was cooked up 17 years ago, then the protege's 'somehow' managed to get their hands on both Dominion and 8472 DNA (before official first contacts even occurred - the DS9 Wormhole wasn't even opened back then as no one really knew of its existence or location, and of course same applies to 8472 - a species that lives in another dimension and didn't even set foot in ours until the Borg tried to assimilate them in 2374) - and of course, neither the Dominion, 8472, or various other DQ species some people mentioned aren't part of the Federation.
 
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Deks said:
Wait... I wasn't aware Dal had Species 8472 genes inside him - how do we know this?
Also, the timeline doesn't match at all given his age, etc.
I know VOY managed to get some 8472 DNA on file, etc. but transmitting that info to SF over hypersubpace would have to have occurred in 'Pathfinder' (just under 2 years before VOY got back home), but without an actual SAMPLE of 8472 DNA, Soon'gs protege's wouldn't be able to duplicate it, could they?

Dal should have been created about 17 odd years ago,... and PRO only takes place 5 years after VOY returned home.
In essence, there simply isn't enough time for Soong's protege's to cook up Dal, release him into the wild so he would eventually end up with Nandi and finally at Tars Lamora thousands of LY's away in the DQ.

If he was cooked up 17 years ago, then the protege's 'somehow' managed to get their hands on both Dominion and 8472 DNA (before official first contacts even occurred - heck, the DS9 Wormhole wasn't even opened back then).
Click to expand...
As far as I remember, Dal has at least the following hybrid genetic traits:
  • Romulan/Vulcan
  • Cardassian
  • Ferengi
  • Bajoran
  • Risan
  • Hirogen
  • Species 8472
  • Xindi
  • Gorn
  • Suliban
  • Breen
  • Son’a
  • Reman
  • Tholian
  • Vidiian
  • Dominion (which species though? Jem’Hadar and Founders I think)
  • Klingon
  • Andorian
  • Tellarite
  • Proto Organian
  • Krenim
  • Orion
  • Human?
  • Maquis?! (Not a species):shrug:
There are also more unlisted species as Dal is made up of 26 hybrid genetic traits. Not many of the genetic traits above are confirmed by the way, they are off an onscreen graphic.

Species confirmed verbally are:
  • Vulcan
  • Proto Organian
Species confirmed through visual transformation:
  • Klingon
  • Andorian
  • Vulcan
  • Tellarite
 
IRW Bloodwing said:
Since my thread in General got nerfed, I'll repoen the discussion here. Trek's writing about Augments in the Federation has been problematic, to say the least. The Federation is supposed to represent elightened ideals. Racism isn't supposed to be any part of its make up.

The trial board didn't even grant Del the dignity of his name, for god's sake. Shame on Trek's writers!
Click to expand...

Yes, given the premise the UFP is supposed to have enlightened ideals, it doesn't make sense they would have bad attitutes about ALL types of augments.
Circumstances matter after all, and Dal wasn't responsbile for his creation (his creators were)... just as Bashir's parents were responsible for his.

Whether you can classify it as racism... well, considering 'race' as a concept doesn't exist in science, then no.
Prejudice against being genetically engineered in the first place?
Sure... which is a product of the UFP ban on genetic engineering .... however, as we witnessed, certain genetic modifications are ALLOWED in utero to repair medical issues (such as curvature of the spine - at least as of 2377).
Its possible UFP started relaxing the ban somewhat so that you can fix congenital problems that would result in deformities, but otherwise the same procedure could NOT be used to augment a person in any way (I was surprised that Torres' proposal for deleting whole DNA sequences which would affect her daughter's appearance didn't trigger an issue with the EMH's ethical subroutines when it came to such extensive modifications - but then again, Torres was REMOV
Timofnine said:
As far as I remember, Dal has at least the following hybrid genetics:
  • Romulan/Vulcan
  • Cardassian
  • Ferengi
  • Bajoran
  • Risan
  • Hirogen
  • Species 8472
  • Xindi
  • Gorn
  • Suliban
  • Breen
  • Son’a
  • Reman
  • Tholian
  • Vidiian
  • Dominion
  • Klingon
  • Andorian
  • Tellarite
  • Proto Organian
  • Krenim
  • Orion
  • Human?
There are also more unlisted species as Dal is made up of 26 hybrid genetic traits. Not many of the genetic traits above are confirmed by the way, they are off an onscreen graphic.
Species confirmed verbally are:
  • Vulcan
  • Proto Organian
Species confirmed through visual transformation:
  • Klingon
  • Andorian
  • Vulcan
  • Tellarite
Click to expand...

Species 8472 is NOT confirmed at all in the visual graph that comprises Dal genetic tree.
I noticed the following insignia: Vulcan, Romulan, Maqui (probably to denominate Human augment DNA), Cardassian, Dominion, Klingon and others... certainly not 8472.

And as I mentioned, even Dominion DNA would be quite impossible to acquire 17 years ago because the Bajoran wormhole wasn't even discovered yet... unless you want to count the Barzan Wormhole (but I doubt anyone would set out to go through that wormhole and end up who knows where without the ability to get back).

The graphic should have denominated 26 actual UFP member species...
 
I do not know how accurate this is:
FA8E5115-F752-4EC1-BB1B-5092843B1151.jpeg
Definitely Species 8472 though @Deks :
764CD554-5F5E-4C59-A527-24169F6C118A.png
OMG how did I miss out that Dal is also….

Q Hybrid!!!! The Continuum lives on!!! :guffaw:
 
I mean, there was Amanda Rogers so Q doesn't strike me as outside the realm of possibility.

Though, that chart is odd since Maquis is not a race but a political organization. :vulcan:
 
Captain Kris Kringle Pike said:
I mean, there was Amanda Rogers so Q doesn't strike me as outside the realm of possibility.

Though, that chart is odd since Maquis is not a race but a political organization. :vulcan:
Click to expand...
Maybe Dal was programmed with genetic traits from species who have a Maquis political leaning? This would ensure that he would stand up against all of those other dominating and war like/aggressive species genetic traits that he is also hybrid of? :shrug:
 
Timofnine said:
Maybe Dal was programmed with genetic traits from species who have a Maquis political leaning? This would ensure that he would stand up against all of those other dominating and war like/aggressive species genetic traits that he is also hybrid of? :shrug:
Click to expand...
That's...just bizarre and not how genetics works at all.
 
Captain Kris Kringle Pike said:
That's...just bizarre and not how genetics works at all.
Click to expand...
I disagree, certain behaviours are genetic… aggression, passiveness, this has been shown through selective dog breeding. It is possible that the geneticist who engineered Dal chose the genetic traits from the species most likely to align with the Maquis and isolated the behaviours which are more in tune to loyalties to a cause, defence of morality etc. Good genetic attributes of freedom fighters rather than purely aggressive warrior species? Warriors with a cause. :)
 
Timofnine said:
I disagree, certain behaviours are genetic… aggression, passiveness, this has been shown through selective dog breeding. It is possible that the geneticist who engineered Dal chose the genetic traits from the species most likely to align with the Maquis and isolated the behaviours which are more in tune to loyalties to a cause, defence of morality etc. Good genetic attributes of freedom fighters rather than purely aggressive warrior species? Warriors with a cause. :)
Click to expand...
The Maquis were around for 5 years? Reasonably not all from the same genetic background? This sounds highly dubious science, at best.
 
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