*~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

[Tachyon]

I think there were wasted opportunities in other series as well, so it is not charactheristics for Voyager only. I guess I personally pay more attention to Voyager's lost opportunities, because I care about the series the most.

About developing their own cultural identity and its consequences when they were back in the AQ - this is something I recently thought about myself. Janeway wanted to remain "as Starfleet as possible", but it is true that their circumstances were unique and their crew was unique. So it would have been inevitable for them to have the cultural identity of their own, which would have been "un-Starfleet" in a way. However, Janeway was such a Starfleet's golden girl, who expected a lot from herself and then some. So her feelings to Chakotay, her XO, would have really made her to struggle with her own convictions more. It would have been brilliant dimension to her character.

 

[Praetor]

While I agree all the series had missed opportunities, I really think 'Voyager' and 'Enterprise' had the most consistently missed opportunities - particularly because they were intrinsically linked to failing to achieve the full potential of each series's respective premise. 'Voyager' just got sooo teasingly close so many times and then would fall back.

I see their own cultural identity partly developing out of the crew's feelings of isolation from anyone else, thus fueling the bond of closer relationships with one another, and the feeling that they could let their hair down, so to speak. I can see little informalities slipping at first - an Ensign forgets to call a Lieutenant sir a few times, that kind of thing. Gradually, more and more pairing off among the crew. The senior staff noticing but not really knowing what to do about it. Then, you have the alien influences - not just the resident aliens but the the aliens that they encountered each week as well, picking up things here and there.

I can really see this all nicely spread out from, say, seasons three through shortly after the incident with the Equinox - perhaps to coincide with Janeway and Chakotay in 'Workforce.' They can't give up the relationship when they go back and don't know what to do, and realize that the whole thing is out of control, so perhaps the whole crew has to sit down and re-evaluate what they want to keep and what they don't. Add to this mix the renewed infrequent contact with the Alpha Quadrant. I don't know exactly what conclusion I would have them reach (as I think such conclusions are usually best left to stem organically from the writing) but I can tell you the journey there would be interesting.

 

[Brit]

Preator is right on the button, I couldn't agree more. The Voyager characters had the best chemistry of all the Trek Series IMHO, so much potential. It's the reason I started writing fan fiction.

Brit

 

[neogothboy74]

While I agree all the series had missed opportunities, I really think 'Voyager' and 'Enterprise' had the most consistently missed opportunities - particularly because they were intrinsically linked to failing to achieve the full potential of each series's respective premise. 'Voyager' just got sooo teasingly close so many times and then would fall back.

'Well Said'.

I feel the same way.

Except that I felt that Voyager got most of this stuff right in the early seasons and then more-or-less lost it, while the reverse was true (IMO) for Enterprise. The first 2 seasons of Enterprise are a directionless mess that more often than not sucks beyond the telling of it; they're easily my least favorite seasons of any Trek. But I thought that season 3 was a huge improvment and that Season 4 was some of the best not-to-be-missed Trek I'd seen since the end of DS9 (ignoring the the Enterprise 'finale').

Though one thing that Voyager did do extremely well, that continued to excell throughout it's run was production design. The show LOOKS amazing. It's very pretty. Very attractive. And the actors, for the most part, really hit it out of the park. It was only ever the writing that undermined Voyager, and the squandering of the J/C dynamic was just one symptom of that unfortunate but increasingly obvious flaw. The writers simply weren't up to the task that was set up for them in the ambitious series premise.

 

[Praetor]

'Well Said'.

It's better than QFT.

I feel the same way.

Except that I felt that Voyager got most of this stuff right in the early seasons and then more-or-less lost it, while the reverse was true (IMO) for Enterprise. The first 2 seasons of Enterprise are a directionless mess that more often than not sucks beyond the telling of it; they're easily my least favorite seasons of any Trek. But I thought that season 3 was a huge improvement and that Season 4 was some of the best not-to-be-missed Trek I'd seen since the end of DS9 (ignoring the the Enterprise 'finale').

I agree. They also did quite well with cliffhangers each time, IMO. With Voyager, it's just to me that even though it started off strong, it wasn't as strong as it could have been, then it lost it's way for a bit, then the introduction of the Borg seemed to introduce some new spark but then it was even more of a difference between hit and miss.

Though one thing that Voyager did do extremely well, that continued to excell throughout it's run was production design. The show LOOKS amazing. It's very pretty. Very attractive. And the actors, for the most part, really hit it out of the park. It was only ever the writing that undermined Voyager, and the squandering of the J/C dynamic was just one symptom of that unfortunate but increasingly obvious flaw. The writers simply weren't up to the task that was set up for them in the ambitious series premise.

I very much agree here. 'Voyager' and 'Enterprise' were both very nice to look at, effects and quality wise. It was the material that seemed lacking. In fact, your last sentence pretty much sums up my feelings about the whole show.

 

[neogothboy74]

With Voyager, it's just to me that even though it started off strong, it wasn't as strong as it could have been, then it lost it's way for a bit, then the introduction of the Borg seemed to introduce some new spark but then it was even more of a difference between hit and miss.

That's actually very well said. I think you just expressed something that I've felt but never clearly articulated. Season 4 of Voyager (IMO) is the most consistant season since Season 1. I actually love 7of9 and I didn't hate Kes leaving as I felt the writers did next to nothing with her anyways. In Season 4 the passion for Voyager that I'd mostly lost since it's original inception was reinvigorated - and I think this was the case for the writers too. The void of Kes and the spark of a new character brought new life to all of the regulars and for that season (aside from a few minor stumbles) the show was back to kicking ass on a level I never even hoped it would. I remember Season 6 of DS9 was airing at the time, and for that year I really felt like we were in Trek's golden age. And then Seasons 5-7 went back to the mixed bag approach. Only the bad episodes seemed worse because they now also had some really GREAT episodes to compare them to. And it also began to grate on my nerves that the writers seemed to be able to write such good stories for 7 or the Doctor but mostly failed with the rest of the cast, and that still confounds me - because those characters had just as much potential, and it irks me that the show's writers couldn't see that - when the fans clearly could. It makes me so angry, even now.

 

[Praetor]

That's very well said there yourself. I agree. I don't know why the writers didn't seem to know what to do with anyone who wasn't (to quote Braga) 'high concept.'

 

[neogothboy74]

I don't know why the writers didn't seem to know what to do with anyone who wasn't (to quote Braga) 'high concept.'

Exactly. I mean...why would a writer (any writer) create a character and then say that they couldn't develope them. Don't writers create characters with some sort of future in mind? Or if not, don't writers have a responsibility to develope those characters? That 'High Concept' BS just doesn't fly. You can write 'high concept' stories for any character, if you're a good enough writer. Looking back now, it seems like if they couldn't write the characters they should have just stepped down, as incapable of doing their jobs. Wouldn't that have been a nice twist? Perhaps some good fan fic authors (who by their very nature are passionate about the characters) could have been hired. My mind whirls at the possabilities. I like it. I'm in happy imaginary land.

 

[Brit]

My mind whirls at the possabilities. I like it. I'm in happy imaginary land.

Then write it, or make a roleplaying game out of it. All this stuff keeps it alive for you and your readers or players. One of the reasons IMHO Trek has lasted as long as it has is because fans cared enough to create even when the powers that be would not.

Trek is the second oldest fan fiction producing fandom, and that why I think it's still with us in one form or another.

Brit

 

[neogothboy74]

My mind whirls at the possabilities. I like it. I'm in happy imaginary land.

Then write it, or make a roleplaying game out of it.

My happy imaginary land featured Voyager writers that were able to write the characters well. That's not me. I wish it was, becuase I would. I really would, but I lack the skills. I'm pretty good at poetry I think. And I have written some fan poetry in the past for some Marvel characters. I suppose I could do that for Voyager. But prose, longer fiction type stuff just isn't my bag. I just...suck. And I'm ok with that. lol. I'm happy writing my poetry and reading other peoples fic; it actually makes me appreciate the good stuff more I think, because I just can't do it myself.

Thanks for the vote of confidence though.

 

[xffan_2000]

Hi. Been lurking for a long time and am glad to find some fellow J/C 'shippers here.

Saw this on the Trek Lit forum and was surprised it hasn't been mentioned here yet: Amazon.com has some preview pages from "Full Circle" available. (If you don't want to be spoilered for the book, don't click the link or follow any of the search recommendations below.)

http://www.amazon.com/Star-Trek-Voy...bs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1237333349&sr=8-1

Now that you've decided to spoiler yourself , click on the "search inside this book" option (directly under the book cover picture).

I've managed to dig up the following J/C bits from "Full Circle":

The entire prologue is available, though you will have to "search" for page "12" in order to view the entire thing, as it cuts-off mid-sentence on page 10.

Spoiler: Prologue

Talk about heart-wrenching!

There's an interesting bit between pages 340 and 347. You'll have to search for "340," then again for "343" and again for "346."

Spoiler: Pages 340-347

And there it is!

I've also been able to access some of what I believe is the epilogue. Start with a search for page "558" and work from there.

Spoiler: Possible Epilogue

Oh, man! When Chakotay starts remembering things from their past!

I, like many, was miffed at the event/ending of "Before Dishonor." I want to give "Full Circle" a chance to prove something. What I've seen of the book so far makes me definitely want to read it, if only to help put some closure to the "yuck" that was "Before Dishonor."

 

[Tachyon]

Welcome to the greatest thread on TrekBBS!

 

[es!]

My mind whirls at the possabilities. I like it. I'm in happy imaginary land.

Then write it, or make a roleplaying game out of it.

My happy imaginary land featured Voyager writers that were able to write the characters well. That's not me. I wish it was, becuase I would. I really would, but I lack the skills. I'm pretty good at poetry I think. And I have written some fan poetry in the past for some Marvel characters. I suppose I could do that for Voyager. But prose, longer fiction type stuff just isn't my bag. I just...suck. And I'm ok with that. lol. I'm happy writing my poetry and reading other peoples fic; it actually makes me appreciate the good stuff more I think, because I just can't do it myself.

Thanks for the vote of confidence though.

Aw, I'd just say you should give it a try!
I could never imagine writing anything myself. Then I tried. It was crap, my beta laughed her ass off. The next shortie was better, and then I wrote a story I was quite happy with.

You learn as you go. Just DO IT!

 

[belle paris]

I could never imagine writing anything myself. Then I tried. It was crap, my beta laughed her ass off. The next shortie was better, and then I wrote a story I was quite happy with.

You learn as you go. Just DO IT!

Yep, look at what you've done in the past year, ES!

 

[es!]

belle!

 

[Tachyon]

^What a cute smiley!

 

[belle paris]

belle!

Aww, shucks. *blushes*

Back on the topic of this thread, I think one of the best moments was in "Coda" (I think) where Janeway invites Chakotay to a moonlight sail on Lake George.


Yeah, I do that all the time with my friends. *rolls eyes* Along with weekly candlelit dinners, handholding, "business trips"......(stupid smilies/code not working for me)

 

[Tachyon]

That is a cute moment, Belle. And yes - I have a male friends, and I wouldn't invite them on moonlight sailings and such. Lol.

 

[teya]

That is a cute moment, Belle. And yes - I have a male friends, and I wouldn't invite them on moonlight sailings and such. Lol.

Damn, silly me. I invite male friends to dinner all the time. I even invite them to a fancy French restaurant known as the most romantic in LA. And I pay, too.

I'm not into getting involved with someone right now, but that doesn't mean I don't enjoy male company. So I invite guy friends to do things.

It's really not unheard of, ladies.

And it's why I liked Janeway and Chakotay as friends. My closest friends have always been guys, but platonic friendships between men and women aren't commonly shown on TV. I found it refreshing.

 

[JustKate]

^ Me, too, actually. I'm a happily married woman (22 years this summer!) and I have a number of male friends that I still do things with - with or without my husband there. I can't say I've ever gone on a moonlight sail with a male friend - for one thing, I've never gone on a moonlight sail, period - but I've done other things by moonlight. That's the natural time to eat dinner, after all.