*~*~The Great J/C Thread~*~*

[JustKate]

I don't want to spoil your fun -- and I don't really think I will, since most of those participating in this thread seem to at least halfway agree with me about the...well, let's say, the complexities of a J/C romance in the Delta Quadrant. But this is something that's really bothered me for a while (ever since Voyager first started, actually), and I've always buttoned my lip. Always. So I hope you don't mind if I unbutton to you all -- I realize I'm probably not going to tell you anything you don't already know, but bear with me, OK? This isn't directed at anybody in particular, and not even to anybody here, as far as I know, but really at all those swooning J/Cers (and you know they're out there, right?) who simply cannot imagine anything more wonderful and romantic than C sweeping J off her feet right there on the bridge and living happily ever after in the DQ, OK? Thanks.

When people speculate about J/C in the Delta Quadrant, I can't help but imagine how I'd feel if I were a member of that crew. And it would be, for most crew members (anybody except maybe those looking for surrogate parents), simply awful. If you've ever been around a work environment in which the boss is romantically involved with a subordinant, you know what I mean. And even if you haven't, you can still probably imagine how weird and uncomfortable it is.

I know, I know -- it's fiction. But if fiction is to have any value, it has to be based on real human values and behavior. And out here in the real world, if a superior and a subordinant get romantically involved, one of them has to go elsewhere because otherwise the workplace becomes unbearable for everybody else. You can't do that if you're stranded in wrong sector of the galaxy.

I think that when the Trek PTB decided to dispense with rules against fraternization (which they apparently did: I remember at least one specific reference to this in TNG -- that time Picard got involved with whatshername, the redhead who wasn't Dr. Crusher), they did so for one reason only. That is that if they followed the commonsense rules that us humans have to follow out here in the real world on real ships or in other real work environments, it would limit their potential plots too much.

Trek isn't alone in this, of course -- it happens in TV/Movie World all the time -- but it really bugs me every time. [ sarcasm ] God forbid that a fussy little rule that all decent, ethical people at least try to follow here in Reality Land bars Riker or Picard or Kirk or Troi (or any of a thousand other TV characters that have done this sort of thing) from engaging in a romance that happens to fit into a particular episode. We can't have ethics get in the way of our plot, now can we? [ / sarcasm ]

OK, I'm done. Really! You may now return to your regularly scheduled programming.

 

[leola]

I hear you, and agree that if it's badly done, it's ... badly done.

To me, the 'making it work' is what makes the stories great. I love the internal struggles to be 'more than' human and not interfere with the rest of the ship. I also enjoy the protocol-rationalizing that happens, reminding them of their Starfleet duties first and foremost, facing situation in which one may have to leave the other in a dangerous situation, or send/be sent to die. Just the day to day professionalism of not seeming to play favourites can make for a good read.

Some fanfic is nothing more than words on a screen, created out of love for these fictional characters. Love doesn't necessarily equal talent, however, and there are some fanfics that don't compel me to read past a few lines.

Some fanfic is absolutely stupendous; those that are well-written and fully explore many different aspects of the humanity (Klingonity? Vulcanity? Borgity? Talaxianity?) which includes emotional needs are true keepers, in my book (pun intended). I love the struggles and the race/chase more than the catch/win, more often than not for epi-add-ons. Endgame fixers (my fave) carry on after that, and the catch/win can proceed in many, many ways.

*off to search for some links*

 

[joyofvgr]

Actualy it is reality. There are many people who do meet and get married at work, even where fraternization is frowned upon.My parents, my sister and her husband, and my husband's sister and her husband all met at work. That's where I met my husband also and we kept our relationship quiet and our behavior professional due to the non-fraternization policy along with other things, like not wanting to make others uncomfortable. I worked for a very large fortune 100 company and there were so many marriages. At one point we were considering putting all the couples on the cover of the annual report and say we were a "growing company."

I agree with Leola. It's interesting to hear how they deal with protocol and the crew and their responsibilties on the ship. I think it's more real than being stranded with someone you're attracted to for seven years and never acting on that attaction or addressing it at all. But all of that aside, I think it would have been great if during the last episode J/C disclosed that they had been together, since Janeway received the letter from Mark in Hunters, but kept their relationship discrete. That would have been awesome!

 

[teya]

Teya,

I'm not really a C/7er but this pairing got me hooked first (well no wonder, I haven't seen the first half of the show when I had ben watching it for the first time). I can't express how much I love your C/7 fics! Unfortunately there are not more of them *hint hint*
Or have you given up writing ff altogether?

Aw, thanks. :blush:

I haven't given it up completely, just been way too busy with RL to do anything. I'll get back to them eventually.

I personally always acknowledge the existence of C/7, but I would never kill Seven in my stories, or want to read one where she is killed. I like her and I aim to treat her respectfully in my stories.

Very cool. "Die Seven Die" turned me off of J/C completely. I'd never been a huge fan, but the amount of hate disguised as "humor" in some of those stories just poisoned the 'ship for me.

One thing that I liked about Seven was that she was blunt to the extreme, and yes sometimes a cold bitch. That was her way and I did not find it offending in anyway. And that was the reason why The Doc kept these social lessons for her. So the woman we saw in Endgame was, for me, someone I had not seen before. That teary, crying woman was not the Seven I had seen before or learnt to like. So Endgame was not just one big middle finger pointed towards J/Cers, but it also ruined Seven for me.

Funny, I don't remember her crying. Saddened by what the Admiral told her, saddened that she felt she had to end the relationship, but no more tears than she shed at One's death, or at Icheb's recovery.

But I like to think C/7 as I see Worf/Troi - anyone knew Troi and Riker belonged together, so Worf was a little phase in the between. And according to Voyager relaunch books, that is what it ended up to be.

I just look at Endgame as resetting the timeline. Going by the theory that anything that can happen does happen in its own quantum reality, there is now a timeline for every conceivable (and inconceivable ) 'ship. There's a J/C timeline, a C/7 timeline, a J/7 timeline, and so on.

 

[JustKate]

Actualy it is reality. There are many people who do meet and get married at work, even where fraternization is frowned upon.My parents, my sister and her husband, and my husband's sister and her husband all met at work. That's where I met my husband also and we kept our relationship quiet and our behavior professional due to the non-fraternization policy along with other things, like not wanting to make others uncomfortable. I worked for a very large fortune 100 company and there were so many marriages. At one point we were considering putting all the couples on the cover of the annual report and say we were a "growing company."

I agree with Leola. It's interesting to hear how they deal with protocol and the crew and their responsibilties on the ship. I think it's more real than being stranded with someone you're attracted to for seven years and never acting on that attaction or addressing it at all. But all of that aside, I think it would have been great if during the last episode J/C disclosed that they had been together, since Janeway received the letter from Mark in Hunters, but kept their relationship discrete. That would have been awesome!

There is a difference between getting involved with a coworker and getting involved with your superior, particularly if that superior is your captain. That's nothing like getting involved with the guy/gal in the next cubicle...and it's not even a whole lot like getting involved with the guy/gal who has a slightly bigger office than you.

And as for "unrealistic," heck, as far as I'm concerned, and apparently as far as Janeway is concerned, if you're captain of the ship that's your priority. Is that unrealistic? No, I don't think so. Everything else has to take a distant second, even Chakotay. Of course it wouldn't be easy, and I probably couldn't do it because I personally think Chakotay is hot hot hot. That's one reason why I should never be a captain. A captain is supposed to have qualities that the rest of us don't have, and that includes the discipline to (almost always) put the needs of the crew ahead of your own needs. And in my experience (and I do have a little), really good military leaders DO have qualities that the rest of us don't have.

And I personally wouldn't think being lied to for several years, which is what your last scenario would have meant to the crew, would be "awesome," but hey, different strokes...

 

[joyofvgr]

There's no lying involved unless someone asked them that question directly. I think discretion would be the way to go and it just would have made for a good ending, imo. I think this case is different because they were stranded. Had they had been able to have time off to visit loved ones, develop relationships off the ship, which is the case in the military, that's a different story. Many military personel live on bases with their families, as well. However, I see your point with the problem of getting involved with a superior in general. I have seen that done though, again where I used to work. It wasn't as bad as you might think.

 

[joyofvgr]

I just look at Endgame as resetting the timeline. Going by the theory that anything that can happen does happen in its own quantum reality, there is now a timeline for every conceivable (and inconceivable ) 'ship. There's a J/C timeline, a C/7 timeline, a J/7 timeline, and so on.

And soon we may be adding the death of Janeway timeline as well.

 

[teya]

I just look at Endgame as resetting the timeline. Going by the theory that anything that can happen does happen in its own quantum reality, there is now a timeline for every conceivable (and inconceivable ) 'ship. There's a J/C timeline, a C/7 timeline, a J/7 timeline, and so on.

And soon we may be adding the death of Janeway timeline as well.

There are multiple "death of Janeway" timelines. She might not have survived any number of times.

The beauty of alternate timelines is that you can simply ignore the ones you don't like.

 

[leola]

I know it's pathetic, but I don't like deathfics. Personal preference. RL can be a lot sometimes, esp now that I'm older and have teenagers ; I turn to my escapism reading to escape. That means, in general, I like happy, or at least hopeful, endings. That's me.

I've avoided some DeadJaneways on purpose, and read others by accident. It happens. I've also read some and been 'traumatized' (ok, maybe that's a little strong, but with RL, it brought me down lower than I wanted to go.) Some of it is fantastic, deathfic or not. But if I have my 'druthers, my choice is imperfectly, flawed, muddling or soaring-through alive J/C/7/T/P/Tu/etc.

 

[leola]

The beauty of alternate timelines is that you can simply ignore the ones you don't like.

And I do (and I do)
And I do (and I do) (come on, sing with me ....)

 

[joyofvgr]

I know it's pathetic, but I don't like deathfics. Personal preference. RL can be a lot sometimes, esp now that I'm older and have teenagers ; I turn to my escapism reading to escape. That means, in general, I like happy, or at least hopeful, endings. That's me.

That's me too.

 

[JustKate]

I think this case is different because they were stranded. Had they had been able to have time off to visit loved ones, develop relationships off the ship, which is the case in the military, that's a different story. Many military personel live on bases with their families, as well. However, I see your point with the problem of getting involved with a superior in general. I have seen that done though, again where I used to work. It wasn't as bad as you might think.

Ah, but you see, I have seen it. Twice. It was just as bad as I might have imagined. So we're just looking at the same thing from radically different perspectives.

I understand what you mean about their being stranded, but in a way, that only increases Janeway's responsibility to put the crew first. When you're the captain, that's the way it's got to be, IMO.

But thanks for being so gracious about my offering a dissenting view. I won't hog the thread or anything, I just really think there are a number of J/C fanatics (though not necessarily here, as I mentioned before) who have never even considered the difficulties. They get all, you know, gooey eyed! So I brought the difficulties up, and I might bring them up again, but I promise I won't dominate the thread.

 

[JustKate]

I know it's pathetic, but I don't like deathfics. Personal preference. RL can be a lot sometimes, esp now that I'm older and have teenagers ; I turn to my escapism reading to escape. That means, in general, I like happy, or at least hopeful, endings. That's me.

That's me too.

Me three! If I want tragedy, I'll read Macbeth or something.

 

[joyofvgr]

I think this case is different because they were stranded. Had they had been able to have time off to visit loved ones, develop relationships off the ship, which is the case in the military, that's a different story. Many military personel live on bases with their families, as well. However, I see your point with the problem of getting involved with a superior in general. I have seen that done though, again where I used to work. It wasn't as bad as you might think.

Ah, but you see, I have seen it. Twice. It was just as bad as I might have imagined. So we're just looking at the same thing from radically different perspectives.

I understand what you mean about their being stranded, but in a way, that only increases Janeway's responsibility to put the crew first. When you're the captain, that's the way it's got to be, IMO.

But thanks for being so gracious about my offering a dissenting view. I won't hog the thread or anything, I just really think there are a number of J/C fanatics (though not necessarily here, as I mentioned before) who have never even considered the difficulties. They get all, you know, gooey eyed! So I brought the difficulties up, and I might bring them up again, but I promise I won't dominate the thread.

I'm pretty new to all of this, but I have read a lot of J/C fan fic. There is a lot of garbage out there, but many of the stories I read actually addresses that issue pretty well. You're right in that I have only really seen success stories, so I'm not as in tuned to a relationship of that nature being a disaster.

Actually, I always love to hear the dissenting point of view. I've learned a lot more that way then by being agreed with. Plus it makes things more interesting. If I still have my opinion after hearing the other side, it only validates my own feelings, for me anyway. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, so thanks for being so thankful!

 

[teya]

I know it's pathetic, but I don't like deathfics. Personal preference. RL can be a lot sometimes, esp now that I'm older and have teenagers ; I turn to my escapism reading to escape. That means, in general, I like happy, or at least hopeful, endings. That's me.

I can go either way. A really well-written death fic that explores the repercussions of a death doesn't bother me at all. Actually, I sometimes read 'em just to see if the author got it realistic. I was widowed young (at 46) and there is nothing I hate more than sentimental sop fests--whether it be of the romantic or the death fic variety.

 

[kimc]

I agree there are difficulties with J/C while in the Delta quadrant even though Janeway said that Starfleet didn't like to interfere with the personal lives of Starfleet officers. One must assume from this comment that things in Starfleet runs things a bit differently than the modern-day army, etc.

That being said they were a long way from home where transfers weren't possible so having the command team romantically involved would present difficulties and I can see why they kept it to "chemistry only."

I wish they would have gone ahead with the original idea of having Chakotay be Janeway's lover on Quarra. They knew the show was winding down and this repercussions from this would have been a nice character arc for them for the rest of the season. Also, it would have resolved things one way or the other and made them coming together at the end more plausible OR made it possible for them to move on to others (not Seven though, she has some growing to do before entering a serious relationship, imo) without the fans going WTF.

Just my two cents...

 

[JustKate]

I agree there are difficulties with J/C while in the Delta quadrant even though Janeway said that Starfleet didn't like to interfere with the personal lives of Starfleet officers. One must assume from this comment that things in Starfleet runs things a bit differently than the modern-day army, etc.

Yeah, there was at least one specific reference in TNG, too -- I was too lazy to look up the reference earlier, but it was Picard in "Lessons," the one where he falls in love with Nella. I just have never heard any compelling reason why something that has bothered military organizations -- actually, non-military organizations, too -- pretty much for always is suddenly not a problem for Starfleet, particularly when, clearly, sometimes it is a problem. Picard certainly found it so. So yeah, we're supposed to accept that something's changed, but nobody ever tells us what has changed. To me it's clear that people are still people, with all the good and bad that implies.

 

[freak]

I agree there are difficulties with J/C while in the Delta quadrant even though Janeway said that Starfleet didn't like to interfere with the personal lives of Starfleet officers. One must assume from this comment that things in Starfleet runs things a bit differently than the modern-day army, etc.

That being said they were a long way from home where transfers weren't possible so having the command team romantically involved would present difficulties and I can see why they kept it to "chemistry only."

I wish they would have gone ahead with the original idea of having Chakotay be Janeway's lover on Quarra. They knew the show was winding down and this repercussions from this would have been a nice character arc for them for the rest of the season. Also, it would have resolved things one way or the other and made them coming together at the end more plausible OR made it possible for them to move on to others (not Seven though, she has some growing to do before entering a serious relationship, imo) without the fans going WTF.

Just my two cents...

I agree, kimc. I wish they would have made a J/C sort of romance in "Workforce". It would have been interesting to say the least. But I remember seeing the look on Chakotay's face when he first saw and recognized Janeway on that planet. It was like she was the most beautiful woman in the universe! *sigh* I did enjoy this episode as a whole because it showed a different side of the crew that had never before been explored. And I really liked the part where Chakotay was trying to prove to Janeway that he was who he said he was. My breath literally caught in my throat at the moment where he used that dermal regenerator and Janeway says something like: "We're the same race.." in wonderment. Then Chakotay responds by telling her: "We're more than that..we're friends". The sparks just flew between them IMO!

 

[MilitantJaneway]

I wish they would have gone ahead with the original idea of having Chakotay be Janeway's lover on Quarra. They knew the show was winding down and this repercussions from this would have been a nice character arc for them for the rest of the season. Also, it would have resolved things one way or the other and made them coming together at the end more plausible OR made it possible for them to move on to others (not Seven though, she has some growing to do before entering a serious relationship, imo) without the fans going WTF.

Just my two cents...

*headdesk* no way really. Damn it really irritates me to hear these things, so many possibilities wasted. That would have been so amazing to see and I agree with that person who posted about the chemistry in this episode, it just dripped with J/C ness.

 

[Jeri]

I wish they would have gone ahead with the original idea...

Wow, never heard that before. That would have been so handy, what with no one being responsible for their actions.