The Genesis Device, Borg, Species 8472, and Section 31

[Citiprime]

It's implied in DS9 that biogenic weapons seem to be HIGHLY frowned upon by the major powers. The Maquis possessing biogenic weapons was a red line by which Sisko deemed them "an intolerable threat to the security of the Federation" that necessitated Starfleet's intervention.

Wouldn't the Genesis Device, if used as a weapon, count as a biogenic weapon?

 

[publiusr]

Section 31 would know about it. They had hearings with the Klingons, didn't they? No way that was kept sealed.

Who’s to say that didn’t set off Praxis?
Nothing new:
https://www.theage.com.au/world/rea...-to-wreck-soviet-economy-20040228-gdxea0.html

The Borg tried to tame the Omega particle. It might be that the Genesis wave—once set off—is something the Borg can’t adapt to. Too powerful.

 

[Deks]

Who’s to say that didn’t set off Praxis?
Nothing new:
https://www.theage.com.au/world/rea...-to-wreck-soviet-economy-20040228-gdxea0.html

The Borg tried to tame the Omega particle. It might be that the Genesis wave—once set off—is something the Borg can’t adapt to. Too powerful.

Depends.
Its a torpedo, but given the area it can affect it may be just too much for the borg to handle.
Then gain, the genesis device really doesn't do anyhting revolutionary... it basically takes existing matter, turns it into energy (via the explosion) and uses it to materialize new type of matter (such as a planet).

Its effectively a matter to energy to matter replicator on a planetary scale... though 24th century replicators can actually convert pure energy into matter (or at least UFP ones can).

Given the fact the Genesis device used Protomatter, it was unstable... however, it was also used in a completely wrong environment.
Aka, it had a starship (miranda class) and a Mutara class nebula for matter. The genesis device was INTENDED to be used on a pre-existing planet.

For comparative purposes:
Earth's air has a density of approximately 10 to the 19th molecules per cubic centimeter (aka 10 Quintillion molecules per cubic centimeter); by contrast the densest nebulae can have densities of 10,000 molecules per cubic centimeter.

Even adding a Miranda class to the mix wouldn't have added anything remotely high in terms of raw material.

So, I would posit that one of the reasons why the Genesis planet was unstable and eventually exploded was not necessarily because of Protomatter, but because it was made from a density of matter that didn't come anywhere close to what a habitable planet would normally have.

On a dead planet, at least you have massive amounts of raw matter work with (iron and various other mineral resources)... so even if the Genesis device detonated on a planetary surface of a dead planet, it could have used a portion of the % of the crust as raw matter which would be turned into energy and back into useful stuff for creating a habitable planet with an atmosphere without negatively affecting its overall stability (though it may not be able to sustain itself as long as say other M class planets... let's say that 1-10% of planetary crust was taken to create a habitable planet [aka, plants trees, etc along with an atmosphere]... under ideal conditions, that planet would have remained habitable for 90% of the time than say a comparable M-class planet that was formed naturally - some real life simulations state that the longest term for a planet to remain habitable would be in the area of 84 billion years...... so, subtract about 10% from that, and you get 75.6 billion years - not taking into account of course the fact that runaway greenhouse conditions would set place due to brightening of the local star in a potentially much shorter time frame - depending in which stage the star is).

Ultimately, I think however you slice it, the Genesis device needs to be tested on an actual planetary surface of a dead planet to see what the actual effects would be (even with unstable protomatter in the mix) and not create a planet out of a nebula and a starship.

I wish Trek would be more 'daring' and not ignore/forget advanced tech UFP comes up with but actually USES it.
It could change the story for the better (aka, more thought might have to be put into it in general) - as its perfectly doable for a scifi story to work AND use highly advanced technology that can almost literally make anything happen.

 

[F. King Daniel]

In the Kelvin Universe, there's tie-in promotional stuff that makes it pretty clear Khan was sent by Section 31 to blow up Praxis

 

[publiusr]

Why it was in pieces earlier in that timeline…that makes sense.

I would like to think that a lot of the running around Pine’s Kirk was doing was a result of Section 31’s intercepting Spock Prime’s memoirs. Memory Alpha thus spared from the Lights of Zetar—that kind of thing.

I might disguise an El Aurian as a vagrant mathematician. “You traveled back in time to save whales, Spock? How? I am on death’s door…you can tell me.”

Folks here on this forum lament how in TOS no advancements seemed to come from the Prime crew’s adventures—which I think would be due to Spock’s suggestion that the tech not be revealed.

We don’t know how Spock Prime died in the Kelvin timeline. But it may be that the secrets he meant to take to his grave were perhaps pried out of him…which might be a good in-universe explanation of the seemingly higher tech level of the Kelvin timeline along with Khan’s involvement.

The loss of the Vengeance set Section 31 back a bit…but reports of what happened to Spock Prime’s time aboard the TOS Enterprise leaked out—and allowed Kelvin’s Kirk a de facto do-over to put things right.

“Our intelligence indicates a Salt Vampire here…oh, avoid Scalosians…and….”

I can just see Gary Cole’s Admiral Lumberg sending Pine on what are now milk-runs right before BEYOND, and the tech advancements TOS never got?

We call that Yorktown Station, of course.

It would also explain the ennui Pine’s Kirk felt getting a heads up. He never tore his shirt or had that trickle of blood out of his mouth…was never challenged…until Krall’s bees caught him cold.

 

[Guy Gardener]

1. Blowing up a planet, star or nebula is not that hard. Blowing up a planet or a star with one torpedo is pretty sweet though.

2. Recplicators do not make food from energy or "nothing". Replicators make food from resequenced protein. Protein is code for human shit (Yes, this is this now canon).

 

[Deks]

1. Blowing up a planet, star or nebula is not that hard. Blowing up a planet or a star with one torpedo is pretty sweet though.

Planet or star busting torpedoes aren't new to Trek. UFP just considers them WMD's and doesn't really use them - unless of course the circumstances might be dire and they have no other option.

2. Recplicators do not make food from energy or "nothing". Replicators make food from resequenced protein. Protein is code for human shit (Yes, this is this now canon).

Except that VOY would disagree and stated that replicators DO in fact convert energy into matter as they are an outgrowth of transporters (which convert matter into energy and back into matter into another form).
A massive issue for running replicators on VOY was lack of energy. Sorry, but making a pot of coffee shouldn't require boosting antimatter reserves via omicron particles for Janeway (but it did).

However, we also know the replicators are capable of converting one form of matter into energy (aka recycling - where this energy is stored in the ship for late use) or into other kind of matter.

I would posit that UFP replicators (at least ones in the 24th century) are capable of both energy to matter conversion... and matter to energy (when is recombined to necessary structures on a subatomic level) to matter.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Energy conversion is using a stored "pattern" as a recipe to make food from nothing which is something Riker claimed in an Early episode of TNG.

More recently converting shit into a steak requires taking human shit from the toilets and digitizing it into unharmful energy, that can then be recombined back into into a conflict free steak.

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[fireproof78]

We don’t know how Spock Prime died in the Kelvin timeline. But it may be that the secrets he meant to take to his grave were perhaps pried out of him…which might be a good in-universe explanation of the seemingly higher tech level of the Kelvin timeline along with Khan’s involvement.

As well as exposure to more advance technology from the Narada. It created a need to build up weapons faster and bigger because the threat was so much bigger. Now, of course, it's just a simple mining vessel, but Starfleet does not know this. All they know is the Romulans, someone whom Earth had a war with, showed up in a massive ship and destroyed the USS KELVIN.

It would put them on a different path, one less concerned with going out and exploring everything and more concerned with ensuring they can protect their borders. So, they might not encounter the Scalosians, or the Salt Vampire, or myriad of other TOS adventures because the focus is more protectionist.

 

[The Wormhole]

It would put them on a different path, one less concerned with going out and exploring everything and more concerned with ensuring they can protect their borders. So, they might not encounter the Scalosians, or the Salt Vampire, or myriad of other TOS adventures because the focus is more protectionist.

Unless you follow the Kelvin Timeline comic series, which consists of many adaptations of TOS episodes set in the Kelvin Timeline.

 

[fireproof78]

Unless you follow the Kelvin Timeline comic series, which consists of many adaptations of TOS episodes set in the Kelvin Timeline.

After the redoing of the "Where No man Has Gone Before" plot I pretty much skipped it. I hated that comic, which is a strong reaction but that's where I am.

 

[Dryson]

We didn’t see Janeway look it up, so maybe it’s a Captain’s briefing thing (like Omega).

Which would mean the Borg would probably already know about the Genesis Device from assimilating Picard.

The minute they fired it up the Borg would detect it, know what it was, and already have adapted.

But we know that the Borg are constantly searching for advanced technology. Advanced technology that is assimilated from defeated civilizations by the Borg is used both defensively and offensively. Just imagine the Borg assimilating the Genesis Device and having the ability to reorganize matter biological matter at the subatomic level. The Borg would be able to create new shells of biological matter around their implants using Genesis nanoprobes. The new shell would give the Borg a layer of added protection against most forms of modern-day weapons. The Borg could even use the Genesis Device to re-grow lost shell material during combat that would add another layer of protection for the Borg.

When the Genesis Device was used as weapon, a cutting beam for example, the Borg could simply cut a hole in the saucer section of a starship and convert the material into base elements, almost instantaneously, that would then give the Borg the ability to add new sections to a Cube. Just imagine a Borg Cube cutting apart ships during combat, the material is reduced to the base elements and then used to add new armor to sections being attacked or increase the repair rate of damaged systems.

I would even go so far as to say that the Genesis Device could be tuned to cause cellular break down of a biological species during combat and then returned to the Borg using the Genesis Device process converted into a beam weapon. The bio-matter is then analyzed by the Borg, similar to a Borg implant inside of Picard's head. Instead of implants being needed, the Borg could fire the beam weapon at a biological from hundreds of yards away. The brain of the target is penetrated, the brain is turned to atomic data using the reverse process of the Genesis Device. Instead of constructing living matter from atoms, living matter is converted into based atoms. Information that is stored, based on how atoms create and store memories, is then collected from the targets brain using a data collection beam type of tractor beam. The information is then analyzed to give the Borg an advantage. Basically, the new Borg would be a Sniper Borg. The Sniper Borg would allow the Borg to not waste Drones during combat that would create a more efficient and lethal Borg solider overall.

I would even go so far as to say that the Borg would use the Genesis Device to deconstruct biological matter of an old Borg. The broken-down biological matter of the old bored, especially the memories of the Borg host, would then be stored in a data base, hidden very securely by the Borg. The non-brain biological matter would then be used to assemble new and fully grown Drones. Drones that might be the younger version of the Genesized older Drone or another Drone. The memories are reimplanted, and the Cube continues on its mission while gaining an efficiency value of not having to search for host bodies to replace aging Drones, thus the new programming of the Drone would include the aspect of being an Immortal as well as having always been a Borg and nothing else.

The Genesis Device would also give the Borg the ability to assimilate an entire planet and the life on the planet, entirely, to the very last atom of the planet, and then rebuild the planet, exactly the way the Borg needed the planet to be.

There are many advantages that the Genesis Device would serve the Borg which would make the Genesis Device one of the top technological advancements that the Borg ever assimilated. The Borg would be almost, unstoppable, if the Genesis Device was assimilated by the Hive.

What Is the Genesis Device - Bing video

2:41 of the video above; should the Federation wish to fund these experiments to their logical, conclusions.

It's obvious that Dr. Carol Marcus was not part of the Federation and that at some point, Vulcans were also behind the development of the Genesis Device. Dr. Carol Marcus is also the daughter of Alexander Marcus, a Section 31 operative.

Admiral Alexander Marcus (simply known as Alexander Marcus) is the secondary antagonist of the 2013 film Star Trek Into Darkness, along with Khan, and was the head of Starfleet and a leading member of the Starfleet black ops unit known as Section 31.

Could there have been a time operation involved with future knowledge of Vulcan and Romulus being destroyed, possibly a Red Angel incident, where Section 31 developed the Genesis Device in anticipation of both planets being destroyed so that Vulcans and Romulans that did survive, could easily be re-planted on planets that were created in the same likeness of Vulcan and Remus?

Dr. Marcus' development of the Genesis Device and Michael Burnhams, Holier Art Than Thou crusade to save the Federation, do both go hand in hand. Especially, given the fact that canon does link Dr. Marcus and Burnham to, Section 31.

 

[publiusr]

That might make them not feel the need to assimilate…just duplicate.

 

[Arpy]

No protomatter lying around on the Enterprise. Plus, shields would stop the torpedo; it’s not a weapon. Might as well fire outgoing mail at them in a torpedo capsule.

 

[Dryson]

Even though we see Dr. Carol Marcus in two different timelines, Star Trek II and Kelvin timelines, there must have been temporal incursion that took place.

Old Spock, having advanced knowledge of Genesis in the Kelvin Timeline and meeting Kelvin Timeline Spock would have made Kelvin Timeline Spock very interested in the Older Spocks timeline. I would have to say that KTS would venture off on his own to try and find a way to venture into Older Spocks timeline to see what Older Spock dealt with. Curiosity kills the Vulcan.

Klingon Time Crystal triple fudge, dark chocolate pudding with black cherries on top anyone?

It's implied in DS9 that biogenic weapons seem to be HIGHLY frowned upon by the major powers. The Maquis possessing biogenic weapons was a red line by which Sisko deemed them "an intolerable threat to the security of the Federation" that necessitated Starfleet's intervention.

Wouldn't the Genesis Device, if used as a weapon, count as a biogenic weapon?

Biogenic - produced or brought about by living organisms:

If the Genesis Device was used as a weapon against the Cardassians or Jem'Hadr, wouldn't the device, in essence, be creating life from lifelessness? Or protecting Federation lives against the lifelessness being dealt by the Dominion and other threat forces of the Federation?

 

[Dryson]

In 2375, Julian Bashir and Miles O'Brien discovered evidence that covert operations on Qo'noS were currently being conducted and monitored by Section 31. (DS9: "Extreme Measures")

Why is that Picard and Company were kept out of the Section 31 loop?

 

[fireproof78]

In 2375, Julian Bashir and Miles O'Brien discovered evidence that covert operations on Qo'noS were currently being conducted and monitored by Section 31. (DS9: "Extreme Measures")

Why is that Picard and Company were kept out of the Section 31 loop?

I mean, Riker did the whole Pegasus thing. Maybe they thought they couldn't fully trust them.

 

[Locutus of Bored]

First question, if a weapon was needed to defeat the Borg during the initial encounter with the NCC-1701-D, why didn't Picard replicate the Genesis Device and then use the device to turn the Borg cube into a nice blue and yellow bouquet for flowers? I mean the Borg would not have been to counter the Genesis Device due to the device restructuring matter at the sub-atomic level.

The Genesis Device is too unpredictable and dangerous a weapon to use during the opening engagements of a battle or war. Maybe as a weapon of desperation or last resort where you have nothing else to lose so it's either this Hail Mary or definitely die / get assimilated. And even then Starfleet would be incredibly wary of using it.

I see it like using gas in WWI. It can just as easily blow back on you with a change in the winds. Some pocket of space dust causes the Genesis Effect to follow an unexpected path that threatens a nearby ship, starbase, or star system.

With the Borg assimilating many Federation ships and starbases along with planetary bases, was Starfleet able to keep information about the Genesis Device from being discovered by the Borg? I mean in the hands of the Collective, the Borg could have used the Genesis Device in new ways to destroy an enemy while advancing their own technology to become vastly superior to all other species in the galaxy.

The Borg aren't really about destruction. Don't get me wrong, they cause a lot of destruction, but that's usually when they're sending a message (New Providence Colony), dealing with minor irritants that stand in the way of their ultimate goal of assimilation (Wolf 359), or when they're dealing with a foe that outclasses them (Species 8472).

But most of time, they'd prefer not to destroy a species and to assimilate their biological and technological distinctiveness intact, which you can't really do if you convert them all into snails or otters with the Genesis Device.

The use of the Genesis Device as a weapon in the upmost and necessary situations to defeat the Borg would need to be as fast as possible, to keep the Borg from assimilating Federation worlds enmass, seems to be a rather necessary, and logical use of the weapon.

Janeway could also have used the Genesis Device against the Borg and Species 8472 in her adventures as well. Much to the demise of Species 8742 that could be turned into little white space-bunnies with spike-balls on a chain for a tail.

Starfleet command and flag level officers probably get a classified general briefing about the technology in order to know what to look for if they see signs of similar technology in use while exploring (like the Omega Particle Directive), but I highly doubt they have the blueprints and formulas required to recreate such a volatile weapon of mass destruction.

Would Section 31 have known about the Genesis experiments, even if only the theory had been presented to Starfleet? It's interesting to think that maybe Section 31 sent the Klingon's to capture data regarding the Genesis Device in exchange for something, maybe intelligence on Romulan movements or dilithium crystals or worse. Section 31 would have had been around for at least 134 years, prior to the Khan Incident in 2285.

Yes, I'm sure Section 31 was well aware of the technology, but they most certainly would not share info or a tech exchange about it with the Klingons (especially after Kruge) seeing as the Klingons would be just as likely to turn it on the Federation core worlds, especially as a means for more radical elements to re-balance the power dynamic after the destruction of Praxis and the environmental crisis on Q'o'nos.

Also, for all of their many faults and evils, Section 31 does want to ostensibly protect the Federation, and this would be introducing a destabilizing element into the balance of power in the region that would cause others to attack.

Section 31 was even around before Michael Burnham in 2255, by at least 104 years. I would think Section 31 would have known about the Genesis Device and could possibly have been the covert organization that funded the experiments. Could Section 31 have set the meeting up between Kirk and Kruge in an operation to get of Kirk for some reason?

To what end?

 

[publiusr]

Protomatter is probably something you just can’t replicate with ease.
Thaleron radiation could do to Borg what was done to their Queen in First Contact.

 

[Dryson]

Bad Father Christmas

I see it like using gas in WWI. It can just as easily blow back on you with a change in the winds. Some pocket of space dust causes the Genesis Effect to follow an unexpected path that threatens a nearby ship, starbase, or star system.

Having some military training in identifying Nuclear, Biological and Chemical weapons, you are correct about the wind. During a war however the effects of chemical weapons following unexpected paths is rarely a concern for the side using the gas weapon as the gas weapon wouldn't be used anywhere near a friendly, populated area.

To what end?

To get rid of Kirk by the hands of the Klingons. Someone must have had it out for Kirk, given the conspiracy we see in TUC, which involved Klingons. Klingons also killed Kirk's son in ST: III, thus removing Kirk's lineage from Starfleet.
Kirk's girl, Dr. Carol Marcus and his son, David Marcus, were both part of Section 31 as was Admiral Alexander Marcus.

Unseen in the prime universe, he (Alexander Marcus) makes his onscreen debut in Star Trek: Into Darkness, as the section 31 Admiral who decides to wake Khan, and later tries to destroy the USS Enterprise aboard his massive ship, the Vengeance. Although unseen in the prime universe, Admiral Alexander Marcus could still have been part of Section 31 which would tie in with the attempted murder of Kirk in the Kelvin timeline, possibly. Maybe Admiral Marcus had it in for Kirk in the prime universe and was trying to eradicate Kirk in as many timelines as possible. One reason could be the child that Kirk and Carol Marcus had together that Kirk never really knew about which would tarnish Admiral Marcus' image to some degree or draw attention to his Section 31 affairs. Perhaps Admiral Marcus was chasing Kirk through the timelines to murder Kirk so that the Federation and Klingon Empire would become hostile towards each other after Praxis exploded, resulting in a need for the Vengeance class of starship that was commanded by Admiral Marcus himself.