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The full version of Ares IV?

Mr. Laser Beam

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You know, from VOY's "One Small Step." Are there any images of what the fully assembled version looks like? I assume that what we actually saw was just the command module. What does it look like with the Mars lander module attached? Or even the launch/booster?
 
I'd like to think that the booster stage looked something like a conning tower -less DY-100 vessel... Or at least was based on an advanced form of that tech. If long flying pencils were the norm for interplanetary vehicles in the 1990s, they might continue to be so in the 2030s, despite the reputed advances in propulsive technology.

There is one conical module attached to the business end of the vehicle we see. In a vessel built today, that could be for Earth reentry - but in the 2030s Trek context, that makes no sense. The entire Ares stack would be perfectly capable of decelerating to Earth orbit after the Mars sortie, and there would be plenty of shuttle-type vehicles to move the crew, eliminating the need to haul the dead weight an Earth lander of their own to Mars and back.

So that cone is probably one of the Mars landers, while another one is down on the surface. Whether the other one is a cone as well is debatable, because there's no room for a second one in the configuration we see. More probably, the forward docking port was mated to a more capable lander, while the small cone is just a contingency vehicle in case the bigger lander fails to return (and, possibly, a lifepod for Earth return if something goes really badly wrong during final deceleration to Earth orbit).

Might be that the cone is just a probe of some sort, too, or a cargo vehicle, and the mission so far hasn't called for launching it...

Timo Saloniemi
 
there would be plenty of shuttle-type vehicles to move the crew, eliminating the need to haul the dead weight an Earth lander of their own to Mars and back.

So that cone is probably one of the Mars landers, while another one is down on the surface.

I don't think the cone is a lander, otherwise Kelly would surely have used it to escape to the surface of Mars after the ship was threatened (and before it got sucked into the anomaly).
 
^ Given the size of the orbiter that would indeed do the trick, though the side-mount version of the Jupiter Direct would probably work better.

There is one conical module attached to the business end of the vehicle we see. In a vessel built today, that could be for Earth reentry - but in the 2030s Trek context, that makes no sense. The entire Ares stack would be perfectly capable of decelerating to Earth orbit after the Mars sortie, and there would be plenty of shuttle-type vehicles to move the crew, eliminating the need to haul the dead weight an Earth lander of their own to Mars and back.
Not necessarily. NASA is getting ready to retire its CURRENT shuttle fleet with no shuttle replacement planned for the near future; the reason for this, frankly, is that shuttles tend to be far more expensive than they are useful and wind up duplicating functionality that more conventional systems provide at half the price.

With technology advancing along Trek lines, disposable launch systems will probably be as cheap and as common as cessnas; the demand for single or limited-use capsules would be driven by that particular market, as would most R&D efforts in space exploration. Capsules, therefore, are going to advance a hell of a lot faster than spaceplanes, and the reentry craft on Ares-IV is probably a fully reusable design capable of controlled pinpoint landings on a ground target.[/QUOTE]
 
I still doubt that a civilization that routinely travels between planets would treat Ares IV as a "one-off" mission that has to carry all of its infrastructure with it. There's going to be another ship a week from the accident (Ares V, perhaps?) to pick up the two surface surveyors; elsewhere, the Charybdis is being launched on a much farther-reaching mission. That more or less demands some sort of a well-established Earth-to-LEO infrastructure that's independent of these particular missions but vital for them and others.

The Space Shuttle was retired largely because it wasn't the Hermes or the Dyna-Soar; that is, because it had the USAF-specified massive cargo hold that did it more damage than good. The world would have plenty of use for half a dozen Dyna-Soar category types right now - and once those were up and going, it would become pennywise to also invest in ballistic capsules for crew transport.

In any case, the Trek 2030s space hardware seems to be a curious and unpredictable mix of advanced and basic techniques and technologies - or just what the contemporaries of Willy Ley would have said about our space tech. The DY-100 generation of spacecraft is apparently launched from surface to space with a cluster of non-winged (but perhaps still reusable) booster rockets, which appears "primitive" to us (even if it happened in the 1990s and perhaps 1980s already) - yet carries advanced stuff such as cryogenics and artificial gravity and Saturn-and-back drives. The next generation goes to Mars in a week, and even has some sort of outside-heliopause-and-back means, but still carries ballistic capsules and solar panels and doesn't have onboard artificial gravity at least 100% of the time. And the generation beyond that can pack a FTL drive, and apparently also a conventional drive that can do the return trip from a multi-lightsecond outward journey in hours, in the upper stage of a smallish ICBM... So there's an interesting spectrum of abilities, and hardly a reason to argue that any single item there would fall outside the "normal" parameters of Trek spaceflight.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I still doubt that a civilization that routinely travels between planets would treat Ares IV as a "one-off" mission that has to carry all of its infrastructure with it.
What makes you think it's a one-off mission? If Ares-IV doesn't burn up on the return to Earth then you can simply park it in orbit, refuel it and then fly it again on another mission. The reentry capsule would be the 21st century equivalent of NX-01's shuttlepod, entering the atmosphere and making a pinpoint thruster-controlled landing, then returning to orbit on a disposable SSTO.

The Space Shuttle was retired largely because it wasn't the Hermes or the Dyna-Soar; that is, because it had the USAF-specified massive cargo hold that did it more damage than good.
Let's be clear: the space shuttle is being retired because the entire system was several times more expensive and more complicated than it was supposed to and NASA has concluded that the system is not worth the amount of effort used to maintain it.

Further to note: there's no canonical evidence that the DY-100 class actually is launched from the ground other than a desk model in a Voyager time travel episode. For all we know the ship is built was built launched from a Soviet moonbase, or even assembled in orbit with nuclear-powered boosters attached specifically for a Solar system escape trajectory.
 
What makes you think it's a one-off mission?

To the contrary, it seems it ought to be part of an extensive collection of spaceflight activities that aren't limited to individual "celebrity" missions that have all of Earth's monitoring and support resources tied down with them, the way an Apollo shot involved 100% of NASA capacity. If Ares IV were an Apollo style mission, then she ought to have her own reentry capsule. If Ares IV were being flown today, with the option of involving the ISS in the flight, she probably would still bypass that option and go for her own reentry. But in the Trek 2030s, with supposedly routine interplanetary travel and indeed apparent weekly fights to Mars, there ought to exist a well-working surface-to-orbit system that would make the individual reentry means of interplanetary craft redundant and undesirable.

If Ares-IV doesn't burn up on the return to Earth then you can simply park it in orbit, refuel it and then fly it again on another mission.

Indeed, Ares IV is probably Ares II reflown. Might have been Aphrodite VI before that, and scheduled for Poseidon III in the near future. It would help, then, to have enough configurational flexibility that a Mars lander could be swapped for a Venus lander or a Neptune balloon. But would a Venus lander be bolted on during a mission to Mars?

The reentry capsule would be the 21st century equivalent of NX-01's shuttlepod, entering the atmosphere and making a pinpoint thruster-controlled landing, then returning to orbit on a disposable SSTO.

Quite possibly. But there'd be little need for one, when a space coach service runs daily from Earth to LEO anyway.

Unless Ares IV was intended to be free-roaming to such an extent that she might make an unexpected detour to, say, Venus or Vesta, and would need independence of certain transportation and support infrastructures for that reason. The one-week-to-Mars propulsion system probably ought to give that sort of freedom.

...NASA has concluded that the system is not worth the amount of effort used to maintain it.

NASA knew that before STS-1 was launched, though. They still did pretty good lemonade.

Further to note: there's no canonical evidence that the DY-100 class actually is launched from the ground other than a desk model in a Voyager time travel episode. For all we know the ship is built was built launched from a Soviet moonbase, or even assembled in orbit with nuclear-powered boosters attached specifically for a Solar system escape trajectory.

True. But I'd accept the model as fully canonical evidence; most of our canonical evidence on Trek spacecraft is based on models, after all. :)

OTOH, the model configuration could be showing those orbitally assembled nuclear-powered boosters rather than surface-to-orbit ones. Them having a classic rockety shape and aerodynamically sharp forward ends might be for weird tech reason X...

On a related note, neither the model nor the various "live" shots tell us whether those big boxes (always just 5 shown but with sockets for 16) are for cargo or for fuel, but in the surface launch interpretation of the tabletop model, they seem to ride to space aerodynamically unprotected. They probably can afford to, if future STO propulsion is anywhere as advanced as ST:FC indicates; a rocket might reach space at walking pace, rather than doing eleven gee and leaving the atmosphere gasping for the final drops of fuel.

Timo Saloniemi
 
What makes you think it's a one-off mission?
To the contrary, it seems it ought to be part of an extensive collection of spaceflight activities that aren't limited to individual "celebrity" missions that have all of Earth's monitoring and support resources tied down with them, the way an Apollo shot involved 100% of NASA capacity. If Ares IV were an Apollo style mission, then she ought to have her own reentry capsule. If Ares IV were being flown today, with the option of involving the ISS in the flight, she probably would still bypass that option and go for her own reentry. But in the Trek 2030s, with supposedly routine interplanetary travel and indeed apparent weekly fights to Mars, there ought to exist a well-working surface-to-orbit system that would make the individual reentry means of interplanetary craft redundant and undesirable.
Once again, I'm not following your logic on this one. Spaceplanes are VASTLY more expensive and more complicated than capsules, as recent successes by SpaceX and Orbital Sciences have demonstrated. If Ares-IV is an example of routinized interplanetary travel, then the capsule would be a cheap "space taxi" pod designed to carry the crew back to Earth, set to be immediately replaced by another crew on another capsule for a second sortie. With a disposable capsule, by the 2030s it might not even be NASA's responsibility to send the crew, they might literally be riding a Greyhound space capsule to orbit and then report into NASA once they've arrived.

Indeed, Ares IV is probably Ares II reflown. Might have been Aphrodite VI before that, and scheduled for Poseidon III in the near future. It would help, then, to have enough configurational flexibility that a Mars lander could be swapped for a Venus lander or a Neptune balloon. But would a Venus lander be bolted on during a mission to Mars?
No. That's why the capsule would be an EARTH lander attached for all missions. Given the size of it compared to the command module they're probably keeping it berthed for extra living space.

Quite possibly. But there'd be little need for one, when a space coach service runs daily from Earth to LEO anyway.
Yes, it would. And that coach service would probably be in the form of a capsule. This, only because a semi-reusable capsule doesn't need to be turned around and re-launched within a matter of hours or days; you can ride one capsule down to Earth, take an Amtrak to your apartment and grab the iPod you forget to pack, take the train back to the launch site and hop back into orbit on the same day. Different capsule, different rocket, lower cost and complexity.

...NASA has concluded that the system is not worth the amount of effort used to maintain it.
NASA knew that before STS-1 was launched, though. They still did pretty good lemonade.[/quote]
Though by then it was too late to cancel it. Venture Star might have developed into something useful, but political decisions promoted the Orion capsule, which is now about to be canceled for the same reason.

There's a bit of a supply/demand problem in space exploration these days: NASA likes to supply the industry with things for which there is virtually zero demand. Spaceplanes and fully reusable vehicles is one of them (in the case of Venture Star it was composite fuel tanks, and on Orion it's a Beyond Earth Orbit space craft).

So why would you use a fully reusable craft that costs you 100 million dollars to refurbish after every flight when you can stamp out five cheap disposable capsules for 20 million each? They may not use money in the 22nd century, but they DO use it in the 21st, and Ares-IV has to cut costs somewhere.

True. But I'd accept the model as fully canonical evidence
Evidence of WHAT? I used to have a model of Space Station Freedom sitting on my desk, but "Freedom" was never actually built was it?
 
It "essentially" will not. Assuming it ever materializes as a space craft at all it will be relegated to the status as space station rescue craft; the CST-100 and the SpaceX Dragon are already in a better position to assume THAT role anyway, which makes the Orion both redundant and overpriced.

It'll probably be buried right next to the Venture Star in the Great Ideas That Never Happened hall of fame.
 
Yea, you're wrong. Orion is already being transitioned to the new program of record under the new name of multi-purpose crew vehicle. Dragon is not designed to standby for 6 months at a time and does not utilize the correct type of docking adapter to be used as a lifeboat.
 
Yea, you're wrong. Orion is already being transitioned to the new program of record under the new name of multi-purpose crew vehicle.
Well it WAS, until about a year and a half ago when the Obama administration pulled the plug. No actual specs currently exist for the so-called "multi-purpose crew vehicle;" it's a political placeholder for a vehicle MISSION ROLE that some pork-hungry congressmen think Orion could easily fill.

Dragon is not designed to standby for 6 months at a time
Neither is Soyuz, but that's never stopped them before.

and does not utilize the correct type of docking adapter to be used as a lifeboat.
Dragon is designed to be fitted with APAS in the manned version, so... whatever.:rolleyes:
 
If you want to stay close to real world-ish designs, and Sternbach's work, perhaps something like http://www.spacemodelsystems.com/spckits.html

I personally like to believe it would've been something resembling the DY-100 class, just to create some kind of continuity. Basically, take this Mars proposal, and replace the Nuclear Shuttle components with something looking like the aft section of the Botany Bay (everything except the rocket-like "submarine section").
 
You know, from VOY's "One Small Step." Are there any images of what the fully assembled version looks like? I assume that what we actually saw was just the command module. What does it look like with the Mars lander module attached? Or even the launch/booster?

The complete departure configuration of the ARES IV would have looked something like the multiple NERVA-boosted all-propulsive ships from the late 1960s, like

http://www.astronautix.com/craft/imis1968.htm

Only more fully fleshed out. What you see in the episode is really the topmost Trans-Earth Injection (TEI) stage of the ship, all the rest of it (including the lander) having been detached.

Rick
 
I am writing an Origin story set in this time-period... Imagine my DELIGHT at finding this thread!

The outline more or less involves the invention of the "impulse engine" that we know and love in trek... mainly that of an accelerated-thrust fusion engine with technobabble properties.

In my story a series of events take place leading to the hasty launch of a partly-finished testbed rocket to rescue a stranded Mars Mission crew... one fitted with "inertial manipulated pulse drive." That is partly inspired by a novel where they explain how "i.m.Pulse" drive got it's name. A slight tweak and some "modern" technobabble and there ya go.

My question is this: At "full impulse" as shown in the shows how long would it take to go from LEO to Mars assuming an optimal "direct shot" more or less a straight line from here to there.
 
^Good question considering in the shows it has never been nailed down how much thrust and for how long impulse drives can fire.
 
I did a few calculations on it a while ago using the Tsilkovsky rocket equation, but the only way to make them workable is to estimate starships at being a lot lighter than is normally assumed from background materials. The TMP Enterprise, for example, could get the sort of performance we see on screen only at a mass of about 19,000 tons.
 
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