The Force/Limits

[Kirk Prime]

Is there any limit to the power of the Force?

Take the greatest Force user ever. That could be Yoda, or even someone we have never met that makes Yoda look like an amateur, past or future.

Could be dark or light. Doesn't matter for this purpose.

Yoda specifically mentions that the size of an object shouldn't matter.

So why couldn't a Force user crush the Death Star?

Why does the Empire NEED a Death Star if the Emperor or Vader could crush a planet?

Are there limits? Can a Force user crack a diamond? Is there something so dense and so strong, that a Force user can't do anything to it?

Given what we have seen, I would think that yes, there are limits.

 

[Reverend]

Does the force have limits? Probably not. It is after all a seemingly infinite energy field that transcends time, space and binds the very fabric of reality together.
Do force users have limits? Yes. Or rather one should say, "crude matter" has it's limits. For example, we saw Luke die from the effort of projecting an image of himself across the galaxy. We saw Yoda die of old age and one of the last things he said was: "Strong am I with the force...but not that strong."

The force seeks balance and power must have a cost. You cannot take without giving back. Action. Reaction.

Omnipotence paradoxes aside I think it's a safe bet that if anything, dark side users by their very nature would be *less* capable of any supreme or seemingly omnipotent use of the force. They only take power, thus creating a finite closed loop. It's partly why they age so monstrously and partly why they cannot become one with the cosmic force and maintain their identity. It's also probably why we've seen the Sith supplement their power with "magiks", arcane knowledge, armies, Empires and other extensions of material power.

 

[Kirk Prime]

But again, Yoda said, "size matters not." That should mean that Kenobi didn't need anything but a lift to stop the Death Star--and he could have just crushed it.

If he, or Yoda, or even the Emperor couldn't crush the Death Star, then, like you say, there are limits as to how the Force can be applied.

There have to be things that Force users, no matter how strong with the Force, can't do. Objects they can't move or crush. Maybe there are beings that could be so strong, the Force user wouldn't be able to affect them that way.

 

[Steven P Bastien]

Teachers tend to not tell us the real or full truth. This is partially because they don't know everything, but also they often only tell us what we need to know to get to the next level. Which is just a long way of me saying, "I don't know the answer".

 

[Reverend]

But again, Yoda said, "size matters not." That should mean that Kenobi didn't need anything but a lift to stop the Death Star--and he could have just crushed it.

If he, or Yoda, or even the Emperor couldn't crush the Death Star, then, like you say, there are limits as to how the Force can be applied.

There have to be things that Force users, no matter how strong with the Force, can't do. Objects they can't move or crush. Maybe there are beings that could be so strong, the Force user wouldn't be able to affect them that way.

I specifically said that yes, force users have physical limits and have died in the process of pushing themselves too far. So how is this a refutation?

Even so at a fundamental level, you're looking at it all far too literally. It's not about mass to energy ratios, it's about Luke's state of mind. He's defeating himself because he's decided he can't do it *because it's too big*. Yoda knows he can and tries to get him to unlearn his preconceptions about what is and is not possible. "Size matters not" does not mean "I can crush a moon sized space station with my brain" it means "your greatest adversary is yourself." Which as it happens was also the lesson in the cave. For both Luke and Rey, as it happens.

One of the biggest misconceptions about the force (due I think in part to the gamification of the lore thanks to various video games & pen & paper RPGs) and the way it works is that's it's some kind of magical power set, in the sense of fantasy magic games. "Force push" is a light side ability, "force choke" is a dark side ability, lifting a box requires +5 force points etc. etc. All of which is of course nonsense.

Put simply, using the force isn't about exerting pressure or learning techniques or tricks. It's about clearing one's mind and just being open. Which sounds simple, but you try getting outside of your own head for more than a micro second at a time. It's a big reason why the Jedi prefer to train from infancy. At that age, a person's mind is open and accepting by default. It's as one gets older that one begins to litter the mind with perceptual barriers and preconceptions. Which is when it becomes very hard to get out of one's own way, which brings us right back to Yoda's lesson: size matters not.

 

[Tuskin38]

Also depends on the force power.

Palpatine, Snoke and Vader have used the force on people and objects at great distances (Palpatine probably the longest, from I'm assuming Coruscant to Lothal), but they were just simple powers, like choking, or moving something.

 

[Kirk Prime]

But why CAN'T someone crush a Death Star? It has to be more than just clearing your mind, because in the heat of battle, you can't clear your mind. In the prequels, why couldn't Yoda just Force crush all the robots?

Grievous was tremendous with a lightsaber, but to my knowledge, he couldn't use the Force. So why would a Jedi engage him in a lightsaber battle when again, Grievous could be stopped with the Force?

Yes, in Empire, Luke looked at the X wing and thought, "I can't lift that thing--it's huge." Yoda tried to explain that when using the Force, it doesn't matter and yes, he absolutely could lift that object.

So why not crush the Death Star?

The only explanation to me is that yes, there has to be limitations to the ability to use the Force.

Yoda can't crush the Death Star because it's a friggin planet.

Force users may be powerful, but they can't be all powerful.

Think about it--that big monster Luke fought in the beginning of ROTJ--yes, he used the Force in defeating it, but why not just crush its head?

If there aren't limitations, then any Force user could beat any non Force user, and ships, planets, etc., could be crushed with no danger.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

But again, Yoda said, "size matters not." That should mean that Kenobi didn't need anything but a lift to stop the Death Star--and he could have just crushed it.

The "size matters not" speech does not mean that there are no limits to Force powers. It only means that limitations do not derive from the "crude matter." It means that the Force is what limits Force powers.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Then size WOULD matter. Is there an object that Yoda couldn't destroy or affect with the Force?

 

[Kibbin]

To me the force may be all powerful but you are not. You are changing reality and channeling omnipotent power. That's why for instance Yoda had to die and to me Luke went the same way. Not necessarily because of the power involved to holo project but just because no matter how powerful you are you can't do certain things. Not to mention the moral implications of it which I think are perhaps relevant to the Jedi as well.
As to what power a Jedi can achieve I fear it comes down to the writer. Remember Starkiller (Legends) brought down a star destroyer.

 

[Kibbin]

Then size WOULD matter. Is there an object that Yoda couldn't destroy or affect with the Force?

Is it not perhaps a question of the Force being like the one ring where you can achieve much but giving in to such temptation would lead you on the path to the dark side.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Then size WOULD matter.

That does not follow logically from what I said.

 

[Campe]

Are there limits to the Force? Not likely.

Are there limits to how an individual can use the Force? Just ask Kylo. "You're not doing this. The effort would kill you." Might that power depend from person to person? Probably. Has to do with those pesky Midichlorians and how they speak to you from the Force. The effort to Force Skype would have killed Rey. And likely Kylo. It even killed Luke, but he was able to hold on for a time. In the end, it was too much for him.

But Snoke was able to do it. It was just his pesky arrogance that killed him.

 

[Tuskin38]

But why CAN'T someone crush a Death Star?

Because that wouldn’t make for good writing.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Wouldn't good writing require limitations on the Force so they don't create the plot hole? A strong in the Force Jedi or Sith should, based on the movies, be able to crush anything.

Let's go with the idea that the Force is all powerful but the user is not. That means that eventually, there will be an object that the Force user cannot effect. It could be a planet, a star, a ship, even a powerful person.

Could Yoda use the Force to lift Thor's hammer? Could the Emperor?

If the Force user is limited, then eventually, there will have to be an object/thing that will test that limitation, no matter who that person is.

I actually am not versed enough to know who Starkiller is. I'm not a SW books person.

But I'll take your words for it on him.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Could Yoda use the Force to lift Thor's hammer?

And there it is, the shark-jumping moment.

 

[Tuskin38]

I actually am not versed enough to know who Starkiller is. I'm not a SW books person.

He's from a videogame.

 

[Kirk Prime]

And there it is, the shark-jumping moment.

Why? The whole point of the discussion is limits. Here you have an object that is magical in nature, that can only be lifted by someone worthy. So let's say someone is not worthy, but a true master of the Force--like the Emperor.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Why? The whole point of the discussion is limits. Here you have an object that is magical in nature, that can only be lifted by someone worthy. So let's say someone is not worthy, but a true master of the Force--like the Emperor.

The topic of this sub-forum is Star Wars.

 

[Kor]

And yet, now that both properties are under the Mouse's control, we can't rule out the possibility of crossovers of some type, at some point or other.

Kor