Spoilers The Flash - Season 5

[Romulan_spy]

Are you sure about that? Haven't they consistently captured and locked up metahumans in Star Labs? Isn't that being judge, jury and executioner? And it's not like Team Flash has told the authorities about the cure.

Yes they were acting as judge, jury and executioner going all the way back to Season 1 when they would just toss metas in the pipe line without due process, and that was a point of debate back then too whether or not Team Flash had any right to do that.

 

[Christopher]

Yes they were acting as judge, jury and executioner going all the way back to Season 1 when they would just toss metas in the pipe line without due process, and that was a point of debate back then too whether or not Team Flash had any right to do that.

I don't think they ever intended that as anything more than a stopgap, and they did eventually help Iron Heights develop containment methods so that metas could be incarcerated legally. So at least it was only short-term. Removing someone's metahuman powers is a permanent thing, and we've seen how traumatic that can be with Caitlin/Frost (even though that was less permanent than it seemed).

 

[Snaploud]

If faced with an armed felon, a cop is certainly justified to shoot the criminal to protect others.

I think, at minimum, you would have to explain why there were no alternative methods to subdue the meta (such as injecting a sedative instead of the cure and/or slapping on meta-dampening cuffs).

 

[Kirk Prime]

No. Suppose someone came up with a way to cure stage 4 brain cancer (that had affected behavior and personality) immediately via a serum, and decided to test it on a serial killer on the loose. Would they have the cops use a tranquilizer filled with the cure when taking down the serial killer....?

no.not even after taking the suspect in custody.

That isn't the equivalent here. Sometimes a dangerous item can have good use in the proper hands and bad use in the improper hands. Any weapon, like a gun for example, fits this description. A gun can be used to threaten, kill, rob, and intimidate. There are a litany of bad things you can do with a gun. But at the same time, put the gun in the hands of a cop, or a soldier, and it can be used to defend the innocent.

I think, at minimum, you would have to explain why there were no alternative methods to subdue the meta (such as injecting a sedative instead of the cure and/or slapping on meta-dampening cuffs).

In a life threatening situation, anyone has the right of self defense. You can use whatever means you have at your disposal to protect your life and the lives of others. Before the cure, it was shown that Cicada was not stoppable by conventional means. They even went through an elaborate time travel maneuver just to get his shard thing into space, and Cicada managed to call it back from thousands of miles away. So I believe they could easily meet that standard of proof, but even without it, their lives were in imminent harm. Flash would actually have been justified to kill Cicada.

 

[Finn]

You are the one with false equivalency


Forcing an untested serum/medicine on a suspect, violent or not, is not same as subduing a subject at gunpoint or even firing the gun to stop a threat...period.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Forcing an untested serum/medicine on a suspect, violent or not, is not same as subduing a subject at gunpoint or even firing the gun to stop a threat...period.

It's exactly the same. This is a deranged serial killer wielding a weapon that has taken numerous lives and threatens numerous more. The other alternative would be to kill him.

 

[Awesome Possum]

It's an interesting moral choice. Some metas are clearly driven to cause harm because of their power affecting their minds. But some were criminal before and were just given power. I do appreciate that Team Flash is offering it as a choice and Barry forcing it on King Shark was seen as wrong by the others.

 

[Finn]

It's exactly the same. This is a deranged serial killer wielding a weapon that has taken numerous lives and threatens numerous more. The other alternative would be to kill him.

No, its not

 

[Awesome Possum]

You can lock them up, like we do to actual serial killers.

 

[Romulan_spy]

I am definitely looking forward to next week. Looks like Nora is finally going to tell Barry about Reverse Flash helping her.

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[Doc Mugatu]

It’s good that Cisco is leaving. About time the Flash started doing things solo.

Now I'm reading they are getting a new showrunner next season (promoted from within) and Danielle Panabaker is also leaving. I'm surprised they wouldn't time the departures of Carlos Vades and Panabaker to be inline with next seasons Crisis crossover. Hopefully they'll at least be brought back for it.

Doubt they'll keep Flash solo. There will still be some iteration of Dr. Wells and Ralph will still be around. I'm sure there will be an announcement or two during their summer hiatus as well as to a new regular of two to fill the void. As with Arrow, there will always be a Team Flash.

I wonder when this new Speedster comes in? I’m curious to see how they differentiate him from the other ones.

A personal grumble of mine is Flash has too many speedsters. Only should be one hero and I'd begrudge one villain (Reverse Flash). More than that and it dilutes things.

… So... it looks like Cicada Mark 2 is the adult Grace from the future. That seems to be the new encroaching timeline Thawne was warning about. But I can't help wonder -- what if he's playing a game on multiple levels? What if he's actually behind Grace-Cicada and is using her to motivate Nora to do what he wants?

I would be a bit disappointed if Thawne wasn't manipulating things. The Reverse Flash was always my favorite rogue gallery villain in the comics and Cavanagh portrays him perfectly on TV.

More DC character references -- Thawne said he'd surveyed the timeline from Anthro, the first boy, to Kamandi, the last.

I loved the Kamandi reference as I greatly enjoyed the Jack Kirby comic back in the early to mid-70s. That and OMAC (One Man Army Corps).

It's interesting about the cure that they are not exploring enough. One of the biggest moral plays they have is whether or not to force a cure on someone. But should criminal metas have the choice?

Think of it metahumans as a gun owner. The general consensus is that you certainly should have the right to own a gun as long as you don't break the law. But if you commit a gun crime, should you have to consent to be disarmed?

Cicada used his power to murder innocents. His power was arguably worse than a gun because he could take away other metas' powers. There is no moral issue with forcing the cure on him.

You make some rather excellent points. Very cogent. Surprised no one brought it up sooner.

 

[Kirk Prime]

It's an interesting moral choice. Some metas are clearly driven to cause harm because of their power affecting their minds. But some were criminal before and were just given power. I do appreciate that Team Flash is offering it as a choice and Barry forcing it on King Shark was seen as wrong by the others.

So here's the thing though--in both cases, the meta powers should be taken away. If someone is on a drug that is causing them to commit crimes, and there's a counter to that drug, it is absolutely justifiable to give that antidote for the safety of society. Plus, the person who is affected no longer has the mental capacity to make a choice. If the powers alter your mind and make you do bad things, and you were otherwise a good person without the powers, you are no longer sane. It's like an involuntary intoxication.

And the criminals before are not insane, but they are essentially armed criminals, that can be disarmed. Either way, once someone crosses the line into criminal behavior, consent should no longer be a requirement. It's people like Cisco or Barry that really are the ones that should have a choice.

You can lock them up, like we do to actual serial killers.

When you lock up a serial killer, don't you remove that killer's means of killing? You don't give a killer a gun in his cell.

Now I'm reading they are getting a new showrunner next season (promoted from within) and Danielle Panabaker is also leaving. I'm surprised they wouldn't time the departures of Carlos Vades and Panabaker to be inline with next seasons Crisis crossover. Hopefully they'll at least be brought back for it.

Doubt they'll keep Flash solo. There will still be some iteration of Dr. Wells and Ralph will still be around. I'm sure there will be an announcement or two during their summer hiatus as well as to a new regular of two to fill the void. As with Arrow, there will always be a Team Flash.

I'm surprised these actors would leave. This is a really good gig for them. But there are so many great characters that they could choose from to bring in. My first thought would be Hal Jordan, but I guess he's too big to be a supporting character on Flash. They could do some cast shuffling, and maybe bring Ray Palmer onto Team Flash.

What I would really love to see them do is abandon the one villain per season thing. I find that they don't have enough to make a villain last 22 episodes. I'd rather see two stories of 10 episodes each, and 2 episodes for a longer crossover.

 

[Finn]

You are awful

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I'm surprised these actors would leave. This is a really good gig for them. But there are so many great characters that they could choose from to bring in. My first thought would be Hal Jordan, but I guess he's too big to be a supporting character on Flash. They could do some cast shuffling, and maybe bring Ray Palmer onto Team Flash.

Not to be cynical, but sometimes supporting actors are encouraged to go either for money reasons or so they can shake things up. Of course it is in the best interest of all concerned to let the actors put it out there that it is their decision to go.

What I would really love to see them do is abandon the one villain per season thing. I find that they don't have enough to make a villain last 22 episodes. I'd rather see two stories of 10 episodes each, and 2 episodes for a longer crossover.

So totally agree. I would still like to see serialized stories but maybe 2 or 3 per season instead of one massive one. The Flash the past couple of seasons has been painful at times solely because you can feel that at least 1/3 of the season is filler just to stretch things out.

 

[Romulan_spy]

What I would really love to see them do is abandon the one villain per season thing. I find that they don't have enough to make a villain last 22 episodes. I'd rather see two stories of 10 episodes each, and 2 episodes for a longer crossover.

Totally agree about getting rid of the one villain per season formula. I like your idea of 10 episode arcs. I think they could also go the Stargate route and have a bunch of one off "villain of the week" episodes that are just fun on their own and not part of any arc and then have 2-3 "big event" episodes spread out during the season that tie together in an arc. So the premiere could be a big 2 parter. The mid season finale could be a big 2 parter and then the finale would be a big 2 parter. But the rest of the episodes could stand on their own with just a few hints or post credit scenes that tease about the overall arc. I do think that with good writing, there are plenty of fun "villain of the week" episodes that they could do, not part of any big arc.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

In a life threatening situation, anyone has the right of self defense. You can use whatever means you have at your disposal to protect your life and the lives of others. Before the cure, it was shown that Cicada was not stoppable by conventional means. They even went through an elaborate time travel maneuver just to get his shard thing into space, and Cicada managed to call it back from thousands of miles away. So I believe they could easily meet that standard of proof, but even without it, their lives were in imminent harm. Flash would actually have been justified to kill Cicada.

Agreed. Even in the case of "unalienable rights" the natural law of self defense to protect your life, life of loved ones and/or property trumps them all. It is lunacy to try and argue that somehow a person has a sacrosanct right to be themselves at the expense of another or society. I would say there would need be a requirement of "due process" which would include an appeals process, however, the threshold for mandating the "cure" go from a criminal standard of "beyond a reasonable doubt" down to the civil standard of "by a preponderance of the evidence."

 

[Professor Zoom]

I haven't finished this week's episode and I don't know if i have the strength to...

"Our only plan now is to convince him to take the cure...!"

Uh... what? You know you could STILL put him in the meta cuffs, right? You can still stick him in Blackgate or whatever the fuck it's called, right? Like... getting him to take the cure doesn't have to be your ONLY option...

It's such a terrible dramatic turn... "We have no other choice..."

Well, if you guys hadn't been so dumb during all of your previous encounters, and I mean, HELL, in THIS episode... Killer Frost secures his knife, Flash zips in... PUT THE DAMN CUFFS ON HIM WHILE YOU TALK TO HIM.

Or, dear writers, explain why the CUFFS wouldn't stop him...

If they weren't getting a new showrunner, I would certainly be out. As it is I'm not even sure how much I want to finish this season.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I haven't finished this week's episode and I don't know if i have the strength to...

"Our only plan now is to convince him to take the cure...!"

Uh... what? You know you could STILL put him in the meta cuffs, right? You can still stick him in Blackgate or whatever the fuck it's called, right? Like... getting him to take the cure doesn't have to be your ONLY option...

It's such a terrible dramatic turn... "We have no other choice..."

Well, if you guys hadn't been so dumb during all of your previous encounters, and I mean, HELL, in THIS episode... Killer Frost secures his knife, Flash zips in... PUT THE DAMN CUFFS ON HIM WHILE YOU TALK TO HIM.

Or, dear writers, explain why the CUFFS wouldn't stop him...

If they weren't getting a new showrunner, I would certainly be out. As it is I'm not even sure how much I want to finish this season.

I don't think it's a matter of the cuffs, but the fact he kills theirs powers and beats the crap out of them. Even Killer Frost can subdue him long.

Besides this has been how they've done business for five seasons.

 

[Professor Zoom]

I don't think it's a matter of the cuffs, but the fact he kills theirs powers and beats the crap out of them. Even Killer Frost can subdue him long.

They don't need powers to put the cuffs on him if Killer Frost has immobilized him. They could walk over. Like they could've many other times.

Besides this has been how they've done business for five seasons.

I disagree. They haven't had to make the main characters act so blatantly stupid in order to keep the bad guy out of reach. Even with the Thinker, the writers did a better job of creating actual obstacles not this sort of weak sauce.

I'm not saying they've been perfect in the past, but this season in particular has been terrible. How many times have the main characters stood around until Cicada gets up and flies away? The Flash couldn't outrun a knife from orbit because.... they had 10 more episodes.

And the cuff thing bothers me, unless there is something I have missed, they could say the cuffs don't work on him or we could've seen the cuffs not working on him.

But to say we got to convince him to take the cure, "we have no other plan" doesn't make sense.

 

[The Old Mixer]

As with Arrow, there will always be a Team Flash.

Who needs a Team Flash when you're the Flash?

Besides this has been how they've done business for five seasons.

"The writing's been crappy for five seasons" isn't a sterling defense of the writing being crappy.