Spoilers The Flash - Season 5

[theenglish]

Actually, no. I’m not wrong as I’m not making a legal statement, but a moral one.

Just because something is legal doesn’t make it right or moral. For example, slavery. Just because the government has passed a law that takes a right away doesn’t make it constitutional. That can only be determined if a case is brought before the Supreme Court. And who is going to advocate that a felon should have the right to carry a gun?

They aren’t inalienable rights if they can be taken away. That’s a contradiction.

I'm reminded of that wonderful scene in Huck Finn when Huck chooses to "go to hell" by deciding to help Jim. He firmly believes that it is the morally wrong thing to do because it is illegal and goes against everything he has been told by society--but he does it anyway.

 

[Christopher]

Children have rights as do people who are mentally imparied. We don't let them choose whether or not they should see a doctor if they are sick. What we don't really know is how these powers effect the mental state of people with these powers. It's very possible they are fully aware of their actions and have complete control on their behavior that has nothing to do with their powers.

It just bothers me that you seem to want to look for exceptions that would give people an excuse to force a cure on someone. Even if exceptions do exist, they should be recognized reluctantly and as a last resort. It's essential that the first and foremost thought in our heads should be protecting everyone's rights, not actively trying to find excuses to chip away at them.

 

[Marc]

So, while there might be legal possibilities for the meta-cure to be used against a person's will, Cisco and Caitlin obviously have strong moral convictions against it.

As a doctor, Cailin's medical training and Hippocratic oath would also influence her feelings on top of her own experiences.

 

[thribs]

It’s good that Cisco is leaving. About time the Flash started doing things solo.

 

[Enterprise is Great]

Eric Wallace to take over as the sole showrunner for Season 6

 

[thribs]

Guessing who that Cicada was the second you saw she was a female wasn’t hard but knowing how dum Team Flash is, it’ll probably take them 4 episodes.
So the solution seems simple. Give the cure to Grace and it’s all fixed.

I wonder when this new Speedster comes in? I’m curious to see how they differentiate him from the other ones.

 

[Christopher]

Pretty good episode -- I liked the emphasis on trying to stop the bad guy through talking rather than fighting. Although it's odd that the "Let's stop Cicada by saving Grace" decision from a while back was ignored and they had to rediscover the idea of appealing to his feelings for Grace.

So... it looks like Cicada Mark 2 is the adult Grace from the future. That seems to be the new encroaching timeline Thawne was warning about. But I can't help wonder -- what if he's playing a game on multiple levels? What if he's actually behind Grace-Cicada and is using her to motivate Nora to do what he wants?

More DC character references -- Thawne said he'd surveyed the timeline from Anthro, the first boy, to Kamandi, the last.

 

[Finn]

At least Nora should have recognized the adult Grace as Cicada. I'm wondering if there's a Beta site now that all of the computers at Star Labs appear to be down. There was one on Arrow.

And is the adult Grace going to tell her uncle she killed Dr. Ambres?

 

[Kirk Prime]

So somehow adult Grace travels back in time to be Cicada. Yeah, it was pretty predictable.

I'm still far more interested in Thawne's and Nora's endgames. I'm also glad that Joe said that Oz from American Pie is going to jail for a long time.

Cured or not, he's a criminal, and unless he can show that the powers affected his mind, and I don't believe he can at this time, he's guilty of multiple counts of murder.

 

[Finn]

This also raises an issue. It seems Nora's actions hasn't escaped Grace's attention. Does this mean Grace is capable of sensing changes in the timeline, or is she allied with someone who is...

Also, during the opening credits where we see that shot of Nora and Barry hitting the satellite from last season's finale, I realized that that Nora we saw at the end is not the same one since Nora continually influenced the timeline.

I think I noted how Nora's personas varied a bit in her appearances last season. Her meddling with the timeline puts Barry's at shame.

 

[Christopher]

I think I noted how Nora's personas varied a bit in her appearances last season.

People keep saying that and trying to read something into it, but nobody maintains exactly the same emotional state 100% of the time. And it makes perfect sense that Nora would have conflicting feelings -- she was thrilled to get the chance to see her parents and their friends/fellow heroes in their prime, but sad to know the tragedy that was in store in a few years. Not to mention that she was eager to see Barry but uneasy with Iris. So of course her mood changed at different points, without any timeline changes needed.

 

[Finn]

^At least one of her appearances last year, I thought there was something sinister about her potential motives. I'm not talking about the differences in when he saw Barry versus seeing Iris.

 

[Kirk Prime]

It's interesting about the cure that they are not exploring enough. One of the biggest moral plays they have is whether or not to force a cure on someone. But should criminal metas have the choice?

Think of it metahumans as a gun owner. The general consensus is that you certainly should have the right to own a gun as long as you don't break the law. But if you commit a gun crime, should you have to consent to be disarmed?

Cicada used his power to murder innocents. His power was arguably worse than a gun because he could take away other metas' powers. There is no moral issue with forcing the cure on him.

 

[Snaploud]

It's interesting about the cure that they are not exploring enough. One of the biggest moral plays they have is whether or not to force a cure on someone. But should criminal metas have the choice?

It's a good question, though it runs into some additional issues if Team Flash is forcing the cure pre-trial rather than a judge forcing the cure as part of post-trial sentencing.

 

[Romulan_spy]

It's a good question, though it runs into some additional issues if Team Flash is forcing the cure pre-trial rather than a judge forcing the cure as part of post-trial sentencing.

Good point. Team Flash is not allowed to be judge, jury and executioner. Any instance of a criminal being forced to take the cure would have to happen through the judicial process where they get due process, a fair trial etc... Certainly a court would be allowed to make the cure part of a criminal's sentence since the court is the legal authority.

 

[Finn]

I
Cicada used his power to murder innocents. His power was arguably worse than a gun because he could take away other metas' powers. There is no moral issue with forcing the cure on him.

Then why is it considered unethical to use prisoners as part of a study....?

 

[Romulan_spy]

I wonder if Orlin will become good now. After all, he killed those metas out of a warped sense of protecting his niece. I imagine he won't be too happy to see that she has grown up to be a violent metas herself. I am sure that is not what he wanted for her. That might push him to become a good guy and help Team Flash stop her. So I wonder if we will see that redeeming arc for the character.

I did kinda rolled my eyes when Barry not just unmasked but then brought Cicada into Star Labs. Seriously Barry, you bring the villain into Star Labs?!?!

 

[Christopher]

^At least one of her appearances last year, I thought there was something sinister about her potential motives.

Yes, because she acted like she had something to hide. We now know what that was -- indeed, we know that she's been hiding several things.

I'm not talking about the differences in when he saw Barry versus seeing Iris.

Neither was I, exclusively. That's why I said the word "Plus" before mentioning that part, right after mentioning a different reason. Human beings are complicated and can be motivated by more than one or two things at a time.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Good point. Team Flash is not allowed to be judge, jury and executioner. Any instance of a criminal being forced to take the cure would have to happen through the judicial process where they get due process, a fair trial etc... Certainly a court would be allowed to make the cure part of a criminal's sentence since the court is the legal authority.

Are you sure about that? Haven't they consistently captured and locked up metahumans in Star Labs? Isn't that being judge, jury and executioner? And it's not like Team Flash has told the authorities about the cure.

Then why is it considered unethical to use prisoners as part of a study....?

There is a difference--Cicada is posing an imminent threat of harm to members of society. He has shown he is willing to kill. If faced with an armed felon, a cop is certainly justified to shoot the criminal to protect others.

Team Flash would absolutely be justified in this case.

I did kinda rolled my eyes when Barry not just unmasked but then brought Cicada into Star Labs. Seriously Barry, you bring the villain into Star Labs?!?!

Yeah--not one of Barry's smartest ideas.

 

[Finn]

There is a difference--Cicada is posing an imminent threat of harm to members of society. He has shown he is willing to kill. If faced with an armed felon, a cop is certainly justified to shoot the criminal to protect others.

No. Suppose someone came up with a way to cure stage 4 brain cancer (that had affected behavior and personality) immediately via a serum, and decided to test it on a serial killer on the loose. Would they have the cops use a tranquilizer filled with the cure when taking down the serial killer....?

no.not even after taking the suspect in custody.