Also interesting that both Supergirl and The Flash this week featured a chase by a dinosaur. 
Spoilers The Flash - Season 4
- Thread starter dahj
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Also interesting that both Supergirl and The Flash this week featured a chase by a dinosaur.
I wonder if they used the same digital model with different skins. And if it's the same model as the T. rex from Legends of Tomorrow.
I would guess that it is. It would make sense to save money and have the different shows reuse the same model rather than each show building their own from scratch.
You'd think Barry would realize Ralph's right. When you're up against someone who will not hesitate to kill ALL of your loved ones (and has killed others before), you can't play super-goody hero. Sometimes, the hard call has to be made. I hope Barry suffers for his decision (of course until next episode or when they bring back Ralph).
The "C" in CW is from CBS who is a co-owner. They and Warner Bros play well together
Oh, yeah, there is that.
Just consider the fact that Star Trek the animated series is on CW seed.
For the love of God, no.
For Barry, there is a difference between killing someone in defense and deliberately setting out to kill someone. I believe Ralph was advocating the latter.
Yes. In fact, Barry explicitly makes this point in the episode when he says to Ralph, "when you are thinking about killing someone ahead of time, it's not self-defense". Ralph was advocating premeditated murder which is very different from self-defense. Barry does not have a problem with self-defense but he does have a problem with premeditated murder.
I disagree with Barry's narrow definition of self-defense. It's legal (and in my opinion) moral to plan to kill an assailant should it be the only method conceivable at that time (by either yourself or a reasonable person) to prevent the deaths of yourself or others. And it's fine to think (in-advance) of killing methods should such a situation arise.
I get the logic of Barry's line about superheroes always having another way, but it's not always true in the moment. Yes, you might eventually come up with a brilliant plan to stop The Thinker peacefully, but it's still okay to kill him right now if it's the only way to save a person immediately in danger from The Thinker.
Sure, there might be some grey area in actually hunting The Thinker, but that certainly goes out the window once he enters your property and attacks you.
I get the logic of Barry's line about superheroes always having another way, but it's not always true in the moment. Yes, you might eventually come up with a brilliant plan to stop The Thinker peacefully, but it's still okay to kill him right now if it's the only way to save a person immediately in danger from The Thinker.
Sure, there might be some grey area in actually hunting The Thinker, but that certainly goes out the window once he enters your property and attacks you.
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It's grown on me now that it's a bit more into it.
Ralphs 'Look at me' when that woman was about to be killed was genuinely moving.
Ralphs 'Look at me' when that woman was about to be killed was genuinely moving.
That's logical as far as it goes, but the thing is, Barry wasn't just thinking about DeVoe. He was thinking about what kind of superhero the Elongated Man would be going forward. If Ralph dealt with his first nemesis by killing him, especially if it was premeditated, that would taint the rest of his career and his life from then on. Barry's seen how Oliver Queen has struggled with his history as a killer, and he wants to spare Ralph from having to go down that path. (I presume he's not a subscriber to Zack Snyder's theory that first you have to kill someone before you can decide you don't like it.)
Besides, I think it's important that Barry put it in terms of "people with powers like ours." The kind of power they have gives them a greater-than-average potential to do harm to others, so that gives them a greater responsibility (thanks, Stan Lee!) to avoid doing harm if at all possible. The more powerful the superhero, the higher the standards of morality they need to hold themselves to. (Which is why I really hated it when Supergirl had its heroine kill the Parasite and not be troubled by it, and especially when they tossed in a gratuitous throwaway mention of Superman having killed Zod, after previous seasons repeatedly stressed that Superman didn't kill.)
Fair enough. I think he's being a bit too rigid, but I can understand his motivations.
I certainly agree with the above. The Flash, for instance, will probably see very few situations in which it would be justifiable for him to kill. Superman even fewer (or perhaps never). They have a lot of tools that the average person would never have in dangerous situations, and they have a responsibility to train themselves to find more peaceful options whenever possible.
There is also a practical issue involved. It's one thing to have vigilantes who never kill. It's quite another to have a vigilante who kills (even if justified). Superman would probably have to submit himself to UN trial or direct military conscription were he ever to kill.
That's a point that the Law and the Multiverse blog (which comments on legal accuracy and issues in superhero fiction) raised a few years back. State actors like the police and military have the authority of the system to back them, so that gives them protection from prosecution when they use lethal force (at least when it's justified -- and, sadly, often when it isn't). But non-state actors like vigilantes and superheroes don't have that legal shield, so they're subject to homicide charges or wrongful-death suits if they kill people. Even if the action was justified, there would still need to be a trial to determine that, and that would require exposure of the hero's secret identity and pretty much end their career. So even aside from basic morality, that's a pretty solid reason for superheroes to have a no-kill policy.
In all those cases, you are describing self-defense. Barry was not arguing against that. I doubt Barry would have a problem killing the Thinker if a member of Team Flash was in imminent danger. He was arguing against premeditated murder. He was arguing against the "grey area in actually hunting The Thinker" as you put it because that's what Ralph was advocating. Ralph wanted to go and hunt down the Thinker and kill him in cold blood basically as a preemptive strike. That's very different than the self-defense scenarios you bring up. Barry was saying that killing in self-defense is fine but superheroes shouldn't go around premeditating murder by preemptively hunting down and killing the bad guys.
Well, not "fine," just forgivable.
Barry is pointing out that there are other options, particularly for those with powers. And he HAS seen cases where a villain can be convinced to stand down or even reform.
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