• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Spoilers The Flash - Season 2

So invested that she was driven and blinded.

Yeah, but that's what I mean. Just liking the guy's intelligence doesn't seem like sufficient motivation to justify how borderline-fanatical she was about it. As I said, if anything, I'd think she would've been resistant to replacing Ronnie. Her motivations just don't track for me.
 
"If we have to replace Ronnie, it has to be somebody [whom I see as] worthy of replacing Ronnie." Simple as that.

But I'll agree that it would have been nice if they'd let us in her head a bit more regarding the situation.
 
"If we have to replace Ronnie, it has to be somebody [whom I see as] worthy of replacing Ronnie." Simple as that.

And I don't find it plausible that it would be that simple. You're focusing on her actions; I'm focusing more on how she was played and/or directed, the manic urgency that can't be explained by anything you've proposed. You're talking text, I'm talking subtext.
 
I'm not sure I see the difference...we're both reading into behavior that I'll agree wasn't adequately explored onscreen. Better they'd given us a beat in that direction than the obligatory reminder that Cisco isn't ready to tell anyone about the vague and underdeveloped powers that he doesn't want.
 
Unless Killer Frost is Caitlin from Earth II?

Ice powers received at the same time she thought Robbie died?

Her heart died when her love died.

(Thematic symbolism is so hackney.)
 
I've been assuming it was an alternate universe Caitlin since we heard they were introducing other Earths.
 
Yup. Nothing so far has made me think Killer Frost is coming, but pulling a Vamp Willow would be easy now that we've established Earth 2.

The Dead Mixer said:
"If we have to replace Ronnie, it has to be somebody [whom I see as] worthy of replacing Ronnie." Simple as that.
And I don't find it plausible that it would be that simple. You're focusing on her actions; I'm focusing more on how she was played and/or directed, the manic urgency that can't be explained by anything you've proposed. You're talking text, I'm talking subtext.

? The subtext is the same. Caitlin's not the type to let Dr. Stein die at all, and moreover he's the only thing she has left of her dead husband so she's doubly motivated to save him. Of course she doesn't want to replace Ronnie in the Firestorm role, but she doesn't have a choice.

But she'll make damned sure that whoever they pick to merge with Dr. Stein is worthy of the role - somebody intelligent, driven, and deserving. Thus her near-obsession with Hewitt who ticks all the boxes on the surface, to the point of going behind the team's back.

Is it out of character? Sure, maybe... but that doesn't automatically make it bad writing. People act out of character in real life too, especially when they're grieving.
 
^
Actually, I can see them doing something similar to Vamp Willow/Dark Willow: that is, they'll use E2 Caitlin now with the intent they'll turn home-Cat evil as an arc sometime in the future.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if they had no actual plans to turn her into Killer Frost...though if the show goes on long enough and they start running out of ideas, they could get around to it anyway.
 
? The subtext is the same. Caitlin's not the type to let Dr. Stein die at all, and moreover he's the only thing she has left of her dead husband so she's doubly motivated to save him. Of course she doesn't want to replace Ronnie in the Firestorm role, but she doesn't have a choice.

No, the subtext is the exact opposite of that. The way Danielle Panabaker played the scenes was the exact opposite of being reluctant to replace Ronnie. That's what I've been saying over and over again for five days now. The whole problem is that she should be reluctant, but neither the script nor the performance suggests that she is. And there's not a word about Stein being the only thing left of Ronnie. That's a clever speculation on your part, but it's not on the screen. That is my problem. I'm not talking about what you or I can read into it after the fact, I'm talking about what's there -- or rather, what isn't there -- in the dialogue and performance.


Is it out of character? Sure, maybe... but that doesn't automatically make it bad writing. People act out of character in real life too, especially when they're grieving.

What makes it problematical writing is that the story doesn't establish that. It leaves it to us to extrapolate after the fact as a way of trying to reconcile the incongruity. That omission is the exact thing that bothers me as a writer, because my writing experience tells me that if you have a character behave out of character, you justify it. Or at least you have some other character notice it. You acknowledge it, rather than just putting it in there and leaving it to the audience to rationalize after the fact.
 
It's not a particularly clever speculation... Martin Stein knew Ronnie in a way nobody else did - in a way more than Caitlin did. It doesn't have to be on the screen to be reasonable extrapolation. She's putting on a brave front and overcompensating.

I like the fact that the writers trusted us enough to understand Caitlin's reactions without spelling it out. It would've been nice to have a line or scene, but it's not needed to understand what was going on. :shrug:

ETA: Okay, on second thought I'm overstating - I would've liked to see such a scene/line, maybe cut out one of the Iris/Francine moments. Maybe something that got left on the cutting room though.

^
Actually, I can see them doing something similar to Vamp Willow/Dark Willow: that is, they'll use E2 Caitlin now with the intent they'll turn home-Cat evil as an arc sometime in the future.

I wouldn't be surprised if they had no actual plans to turn her into Killer Frost...though if the show goes on long enough and they start running out of ideas, they could get around to it anyway.

I'd be good with either. I don't have any great desire to see "our" Caitlin turn into Killer Frost, but if they wanted to at some point years down the road maybe they could go down that road. And remember after all if Buffy had ended in Season 5 we'd never have seen Dark Willow (beyond a brief semi-appearance).

Thing is, the same thing that turned Willow dark... is what Caitlin's dealing with, but her reaction hasn't been to blame anybody.
 
Last edited:
^
Actually, original Willow was supposed to "kill" Glory. The whole point was to end the show Buffy v. Willow.

Not that it matters...
 
As much as I can rationalize why Caitlin behaved as she did regarding the Firestorm candidates, between that and her falling for Jay so soon after Ronnie's death, I get the general impression that the writers are sweeping Ronnie under the rug and moving on.
 
The last bunch of episodes were rewritten when the show was renewed. Basically, the events of "Tough Love" would have ended with Willow killing Glory and going full on evil--or some manner. They've never made it clear exactly how it was supposed to go.

*ETA My point was, that Whedon had always planned on Dark Willow--it wasn't a product of season 6.
 
originally I have to guess that Killer Frost (like Multiplex) was an opponent with seemingly opposite powers to Firestorm.

If Earth I Ronnie fell to Earth II, then is his own Matrix as unstable as Stein's that he is looking for a new dance party too?

I'm about to start watching 400 Days.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top