The Final Frontier vs. Star Trek XI

[AxelFoley]

Could someone link me the TWOK Vs STXI thread? I can't seem to find it.

 

[TheGodBen]

Finally, a poll where I can vote for STXI!

 

[JarodRussell]

If the new movie had visual effects as substandard as TFF, nobody would even think about praising it.

I would still rank XI of V because of the better written script and the great performance by the new cast rather than what I saw in V.

There's the thing, I think the script is the worst thing I've read in a long time.

 

[Shazam!]

If I were to look at it from a non-Star Trek perspective, the Trek XI script is perfectly fine up until Spock enters the fray with his 10 minute long exposition scene.

From a Trek perspective, all of it is quite rubbish.

 

[JarodRussell]

Even from a non-Star Trek perspective it's not good. One-dimensional characters, flawed characterization, an extremely shallow villain, pretty awful dialogue (the Orci & Kurtzman trademark, I suppose), many scenes without ANY point, and everything being connected by pure coincident.

 

[Greg Cox]

Is this a joke?

I hope so.

 

[Warped9]

I'll take TFF with al its sins over STXI any fucking time. At least TFF has moments of charm of the original cast.

 

[STR]

Look at it another way, TFF was almost a great movie, but was handicapped from the beginning. ST11 had all the advantages of money, technology, and unchained creative staff and was still only marginally better than TFF.

And that's where I stop reading. The thread asks which film is better. It doesn't matter to what degree Star Trek exceeds over Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.

Of course, I think Abrams' film is head and shoulders above Shatner's mess, but that is solely my opinion.

For the record, I should state that I was referring to the poll here. I was not saying 11 was better in my opinion, but from the general consensus here.

You must be kidding.

TFF was awful in every respect. It has a stupid plot, awful characterization, bad humor, abysmal effects, a lot of bad acting, amateurish direction, and it makes caricatures out of the TOS characters to the point of being offensive to some of them.

Scratch out abysmal effects and I'd say all those qualities apply to both movies. My fiance is still mad over how Nuhura turned out versus the original. Say what you will about Uhura trying to keep cozy with Scotty, but at least she wasn't sleeping with him to further her career. Nor was the antagonist completely retarded. Sybok wanted to literally find God. Okay, fine. What did he do to acomplish his goal? He went to where he thought God was. Nero was mad that his planet was blown up by a star. So what did he do when he found himself 200 years in the past? Did he try to warn his people or prevent the explosion? Nope. He blew the planet of the one guy who put his ass on the line by flying into a star to try and save it. What. The. Hell?

Nevermind this was the second movie in a row to utilize a Romulan with misdirected anger using a rube goldberg death machine to try and blow up earth. But, that's probably was just a coincidence. You know what else was a coincidence? EVERY SCENE IN THE MOVIE. I can dig Spock coincidentally being one of Kirk's instructors. It is absolutely lazy writing to have Kirk landing on a barren planet (because Spock 2 (TM) shot him out of an airlock instead of throwing him in the brig. That has to be hella illegal, not to mention stupid in case they end up needing that escape pod to, you know, save lives) with no one else on it except for Scotty and Spock Classic(TM). It makes no flipping sense. At least ST5 is internally coherent.

But Spock's "flashback" scene is stupid, unless you interpret it as a result of Spock's imagination rather than a memory, and even then, it's threading all ground, and not in a particularly good way. Sadly, while being stupid, it is still probably the second best scene in the movie, which tells you what the rest of the movie is like.

Stupid based on what, exactly? And how is it any worse than the trite tripe scene in ST11 where Sarek professes his undying love for all things spock? Holy crap, my eyes almost rolled out of their sockets on that one. Mostly because I expect that kind of feel-good-everybody-loves-you crap from children's programming. A "I know we've never seen eye to eye, but we're all each of us have left, let's try to bury the swords" is both more in character, and more adult. But hey, let's not have complicated parent-child relationships, that's too subtle. Let's blow up Spocks planet using strawberry syrup, killing almost everyone Spock ever knew and on top of that, as if was even necessary, needlessly kill Spock's mom in the middle of Spock saving her. That was just sadistic.

 

[Aike]

Nevermind this was the second movie in a row to utilize a Romulan with misdirected anger using a rube goldberg death machine to try and blow up earth.

Who was the first Romulan? What movie? I´d like to see that one. Or are you referring to Shinzon. He was human.

 

[Shazam!]

Nevermind this was the second movie in a row to utilize a Romulan with misdirected anger using a rube goldberg death machine to try and blow up earth.

Who was the first Romulan? What movie? I´d like to see that one. Or are you referring to Shinzon. He was human.

But other than that, everything else he said you agree with.

 

[DevilEyes]

Look at it another way, TFF was almost a great movie, but was handicapped from the beginning. ST11 had all the advantages of money, technology, and unchained creative staff and was still only marginally better than TFF.

And that's where I stop reading. The thread asks which film is better. It doesn't matter to what degree Star Trek exceeds over Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.

Of course, I think Abrams' film is head and shoulders above Shatner's mess, but that is solely my opinion.

For the record, I should state that I was referring to the poll here. I was not saying 11 was better in my opinion, but from the general consensus here.

You must be kidding.

TFF was awful in every respect. It has a stupid plot, awful characterization, bad humor, abysmal effects, a lot of bad acting, amateurish direction, and it makes caricatures out of the TOS characters to the point of being offensive to some of them.

Scratch out abysmal effects and I'd say all those qualities apply to both movies. My fiance is still mad over how Nuhura turned out versus the original. Say what you will about Uhura trying to keep cozy with Scotty, but at least she wasn't sleeping with him to further her career.

So? Neither was she in STXI. What is your point?

I would love to know what exactly is your fiancee so pissed about. That Uhura, for once, has a love life? How shocking.

Nor was the antagonist completely retarded.

Oh, OK. He was only somewhat retarded. It was most of the crew of Enterprise who were completely retarded, since he was able to brainwash them with a 5-minute touchy-feely talk.

Nevermind this was the second movie in a row to utilize a Romulan with misdirected anger using a rube goldberg death machine to try and blow up earth.

No, it is not. Who was the first Romulan you speak of?

At least ST5 is internally coherent.

Coherent in what exactly? Everybody acting like idiots?

But Spock's "flashback" scene is stupid, unless you interpret it as a result of Spock's imagination rather than a memory, and even then, it's threading all ground, and not in a particularly good way. Sadly, while being stupid, it is still probably the second best scene in the movie, which tells you what the rest of the movie is like.

Stupid based on what, exactly? And how is it any worse than the trite tripe scene in ST11 where Sarek professes his undying love for all things spock? Holy crap, my eyes almost rolled out of their sockets on that one. Mostly because I expect that kind of feel-good-everybody-loves-you crap from children's programming. A "I know we've never seen eye to eye, but we're all each of us have left, let's try to bury the swords" is both more in character, and more adult. But hey, let's not have complicated parent-child relationships, that's too subtle. Let's blow up Spocks planet using strawberry syrup, killing almost everyone Spock ever knew and on top of that, as if was even necessary, needlessly kill Spock's mom in the middle of Spock saving her. That was just sadistic.

Complicated parent-child relationships? That scene looked like an exercise in how a clueless person would write Sarek and try to show Spock's internal struggle. You can't see what is stupid in that scene? Really? Even if we decide to believe that newborn Vulcans (or in this case, half-Vulcans) can actually remember what happened when they were born, you don't think it makes Sarek look like not only a complete jerk and totally racist, but also a 100% idiot? "So human". Nevermind that Spock really looks sooo human and so different from Vulcans...right. What the hell did Sarek expect to see? Was he just pissed off that his child was half-human? Well, Sarek, you married and conceived a child with a human, doesn't it stand to reason that your baby will be half-human? Duh.

Whatever else he was, the man we saw in "Journey to Babel", TSFS, TVH, "Sarek" and "Unification" was no idiot, and did indeed love his wife Amanda and his son Spock.

 

[Falcor5]

Could someone link me the TWOK Vs STXI thread? I can't seem to find it.

Sure here ya go: http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=102959

 

[Harvey]

If the new movie had visual effects as substandard as TFF, nobody would even think about praising it.

...And?

The visual effects of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier were substandard in 1989. They would have been substandard in 1982. They're not even as good as the rushed effects work done for Star Trek: The Motion Picture in 1979. So, yes, if a major tentpole release greatly dependent on scope and spectacle delivered visual effects that would have been substandard thirty years ago, of course nobody would be thinking of praising it.

The performances, the music, and the cinematography wouldn't be remembered in the same way that nobody would remember Star Wars if ILM had delivered a bunch of wobbly models with the strings visible in the frame.

 

[JarodRussell]

If the new movie had visual effects as substandard as TFF, nobody would even think about praising it.

...And?

The visual effects of Star Trek V: The Final Frontier were substandard in 1989. They would have been substandard in 1982. They're not even as good as the rushed effects work done for Star Trek: The Motion Picture in 1979. So, yes, if a major tentpole release greatly dependent on scope and spectacle delivered visual effects that would have been substandard thirty years ago, of course nobody would be thinking of praising it.

The performances, the music, and the cinematography wouldn't be remembered in the same way that nobody would remember Star Wars if ILM had delivered a bunch of wobbly models with the strings visible in the frame.

It seems you got the point, but you're still asking "...and?" ?

 

[Brutal Strudel]

And that's where I stop reading. The thread asks which film is better. It doesn't matter to what degree Star Trek exceeds over Star Trek V: The Final Frontier.

Of course, I think Abrams' film is head and shoulders above Shatner's mess, but that is solely my opinion.

For the record, I should state that I was referring to the poll here. I was not saying 11 was better in my opinion, but from the general consensus here.



Scratch out abysmal effects and I'd say all those qualities apply to both movies. My fiance is still mad over how Nuhura turned out versus the original. Say what you will about Uhura trying to keep cozy with Scotty, but at least she wasn't sleeping with him to further her career.

So? Neither was she in STXI. What is your point?

I would love to know what exactly is your fiancee so pissed about. That Uhura, for once, has a love life? How shocking.


Oh, OK. He was only somewhat retarded. It was most of the crew of Enterprise who were completely retarded, since he was able to brainwash them with a 5-minute touchy-feely talk.


No, it is not. Who was the first Romulan you speak of?



Coherent in what exactly? Everybody acting like idiots?

But Spock's "flashback" scene is stupid, unless you interpret it as a result of Spock's imagination rather than a memory, and even then, it's threading all ground, and not in a particularly good way. Sadly, while being stupid, it is still probably the second best scene in the movie, which tells you what the rest of the movie is like.

Stupid based on what, exactly? And how is it any worse than the trite tripe scene in ST11 where Sarek professes his undying love for all things spock? Holy crap, my eyes almost rolled out of their sockets on that one. Mostly because I expect that kind of feel-good-everybody-loves-you crap from children's programming. A "I know we've never seen eye to eye, but we're all each of us have left, let's try to bury the swords" is both more in character, and more adult. But hey, let's not have complicated parent-child relationships, that's too subtle. Let's blow up Spocks planet using strawberry syrup, killing almost everyone Spock ever knew and on top of that, as if was even necessary, needlessly kill Spock's mom in the middle of Spock saving her. That was just sadistic.

Complicated parent-child relationships? That scene looked like an exercise in how a clueless person would write Sarek and try to show Spock's internal struggle. You can't see what is stupid in that scene? Really? Even if we decide to believe that newborn Vulcans (or in this case, half-Vulcans) can actually remember what happened when they were born, you don't think it makes Sarek look like not only a complete jerk and totally racist, but also a 100% idiot? "So human". Nevermind that Spock really looks sooo human and so different from Vulcans...right. What the hell did Sarek expect to see? Was he just pissed off that his child was half-human? Well, Sarek, you married and conceived a child with a human, doesn't it stand to reason that your baby will be half-human? Duh.

Whatever else he was, the man we saw in "Journey to Babel", TSFS, TVH, "Sarek" and "Unification" was no idiot, and did indeed love his wife Amanda and his son Spock.

I'm with you, DevilEyes. This scene hit me as total bullshit when I saw it in 1989 and it still hits me as such. The Sarek of JtB had no problem with his son's humanity, it was his son's career choice that burned his ass--especially since, implicit in that career choice, was a personal rejection.

As far as Trek XI, after the destruction of his homeworld and the loss of his beloved wife, after seeing his beloved* son express the murderous rage he himself so much longed to express and yet knew he could not, it was only logical that Sarek let his shields down and tried to do for his son what Amanda would have had she still been there.

*Cf. TSFS and TNG's "Sarek" if you think "beloved" is too strong a word.

 

[Cyke101]

Rather than list every problem I've had with TFF, I'll lump them into one big group: script mistakes that could have been fixed with another draft. Everything from the spotty sense of humor (Fart jokes? Turning Scotty into a ditz? C'mon now) to the rather small scale considering they were looking for GOD.

(to note, size doesn't need to mean epic. In TSFS, Kirk pretty much improvised the death of his ship, the fight for Spock, and somehow escape from an exploding planet. That's pretty epic, even if the story was all about one character, one forbidden planet, and maybe five ships total).

All in all, I want a film that will take a risk, and TFF played it too safe for me. Even Kirk himself says so ("I knew I would never die alone"). Many of the other great Trek films took risks, and I'm counting XI in that mix.

Correction, I take that back... it was risky to let Shatner direct

 

[thumbtack]

Ok, three things.

1. If Star Trek is barely defeating The Final Frontier, I guess the latter is more popular than the haters think.

2. It probably says a lot of the people coming here, they prefer the old universe movies before the reboot. They may be in majority here now, but seriously most people don´t agree (IMDB ratings, polls on Trekmovie with far more people voting, professional reviews, box-office and so on).

3. I doubt we can take the polls comparing Star Trek to Khan or First Contact seriously because of this poll and reason number two.

Oh, let the anti-reboot crybabies have their fun. Anger is a natural part of the grieving process. I think the next poll should be Trek XI vs. Batman & Robin; followed by Trek XI vs. Plan 9 From Outer Space. Those polls would not have different results than this one.

 

[Aike]

Ok, three things.

1. If Star Trek is barely defeating The Final Frontier, I guess the latter is more popular than the haters think.

2. It probably says a lot of the people coming here, they prefer the old universe movies before the reboot. They may be in majority here now, but seriously most people don´t agree (IMDB ratings, polls on Trekmovie with far more people voting, professional reviews, box-office and so on).

3. I doubt we can take the polls comparing Star Trek to Khan or First Contact seriously because of this poll and reason number two.

Oh, let the anti-reboot crybabies have their fun. Anger is a natural part of the grieving process. I think the next poll should be Trek XI vs. Batman & Robin; followed by Trek XI vs. Plan 9 From Outer Space. Those polls would not have different results than this one.

You know, I have been thinking of posting a Trek XI vs. Plan 9 From Outer Space poll

 

[Admiral Buzzkill]

Final Frontier by virtue of the fact that it at least tries to be a sci-fi film.

The fact that it isn't a glorified mirror universe episode also helps.

So, an alternate reality story fails to qualify as science fiction...because?

Nailed it in one!

The "alternate/mirror universe" aspect of Trek 09 is an "inside baseball" bit of nonsense that has nothing to do with the quality of the movie. If one is bothered by it...well, that's unfortunate I suppose since all Trek films and movies will be set in this altered future from now on.

 

[STR]

Nevermind this was the second movie in a row to utilize a Romulan with misdirected anger using a rube goldberg death machine to try and blow up earth.

Who was the first Romulan? What movie? I´d like to see that one. Or are you referring to Shinzon. He was human.

Romulan as in "Subject of the Romulan Empire." So let me rephrase that line.

Nevermind this was the second movie in a row to utilize a bald Romulan citizen with irrational anger towards a crew member of the Enterprise who in no way created the problem that angers them so much and who is inexplicably in charge of a fanboish ubership featuring a Rube Goldberg death machine powered by a highly unstable and here-to-fore utterly unheard of super physics to try and blow up earth, but not before trying to mutilate and possibly kill the captain of the Enterprise.

They also have penchants for raping/maiming or killing random people (Troi, Robau) for reasons no greater than they can, because, you know, they have to show you they're really really evil. Regular evil doesn't do, it has to be beaten over your head. Repeatedly. Cuz that's what ST is about, how the universe is filled with pure evil, amiright?