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The Federation's ham fisted first contact policy

Legislation, once passed, is the law. At that point everyone is subject to it, and legislators (or ambassadors- not the same thing, and a distinction you apparently don't recognize) do not get to ignore, abrogate, or disobey the law at their whim.

But there is no indication that the order Fox gives is illegal in any way. Without that indication, you have to work under the assumption that Fox is working within the law and power of his position.

AFAIC, the Prime Directive IS that law, and Fox is in direct violation by ignoring an order to stay away. To me it's a cut and dry example of the show contradicting itself. Others have different opinions, and that's fine. To me the episode (which I do enjoy) remains silly on many levels.
 
TOS can't be claimed to be contradicting itself there, because TOS never featured a directive that would tell either Starfleet or the Federation to leave primitive cultures alone. Quite to the contrary, basically every episode of TOS that featured Kirk acting under orders from the civilian government (rather than just from his immediate military superiors) involved Kirk forcing himself upon an alien culture - sometimes primitive, sometimes on UFP level, sometimes more advanced than the UFP.

At the very most, you can claim that TOS and TNG are at odds. Which doesn't count as a contradiction, because the two fictional eras are under no obligation not to be at odds with each other.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Like many laws the PD no doubt evolved over time. So what was considerd ok in the TOS era might not have been considered ok in the TNG era.
 
AFAIC, the Prime Directive IS that law, and Fox is in direct violation by ignoring an order to stay away.
The Prime Directive doesn't get overtly mentioned until mid way through the second season, A Piece Of The Action I believe. It's possible that at the time if A Taste of Armageddon, the Prime Directive hadn't been created yet. It did not exist.

Conversation between members of the landing party in Bread And Circuses may indicate that Prime Directive is relatively new. Spock even asks Kirk if the PD applies, suggesting that at times it doesn't, or that Kirk (as on scene commander) has some say in the matter.

Fox is in direct violation by ignoring an order to stay away
Fox might definitely have been violating Eminar's sovereignty, but how is the PD specifically being violated?


Protocol for the Prohibition of the Use in War of Asphyxiating, Poisonous or other Gases, and of Bacteriological Methods of Warfare
But the United States insisted on a reservation before signing the treaty, basically the treaty ceases to be binding upon the US if a enemy uses gas first. So under that circumstance, President Obama could order the use of gas in Afghanistan, and it would be completely legal under international law.

:)
 
The Prime Directive doesn't get overtly mentioned until mid way through the second season, A Piece Of The Action I believe. It's possible that at the time if A Taste of Armageddon, the Prime Directive hadn't been created yet. It did not exist.

:)

Season one: The Return of the Archons :techman:

The Return of the Archons said:
KIRK: Landru must die.
SPOCK: Captain, our Prime Directive of non-interference.
KIRK: That refers to a living, growing culture. Do you think this one is?
 
The Prime Directive doesn't get overtly mentioned until mid way through the second season, A Piece Of The Action I believe. It's possible that at the time if A Taste of Armageddon, the Prime Directive hadn't been created yet. It did not exist.

:)

Season one: The Return of the Archons :techman:

The Return of the Archons said:
KIRK: Landru must die.
SPOCK: Captain, our Prime Directive of non-interference.
KIRK: That refers to a living, growing culture. Do you think this one is?

They also gave the impression that it applied the pre-spaceflight cultures, seeing as Eminar is at war with another planet I don't think they count.
 
They also gave the impression that it applied the pre-spaceflight cultures, seeing as Eminar is at war with another planet I don't think they count.

I think that if innocents who didn't know a war was going on had been exempt from the issue the Federation wouldn't have cared if they went on killing each other. :techman:
 
The Prime Directive in Star Trek was almost certainly like various constitutional amendments in the United States Constitution today.

They are interpreted however they want to interpret them by whoever is in power.

I also have a feeling that Capt. Picard loved to scream "Prime Directive" in order to avoid having to actually do anything while Kirk embraced any opportunity to change things for the "better" as he saw it.
 
So who says the Prime Directive is a law? I thought it was a Starfleet regulation, and more of a rough guideline for behavior.

Next Gen got pretty strict and extreme about the PD, with Picard sometimes being in favor of letting people die in the name of pristine non-interference. In TOS, it was more a matter of interacting with less-developed civilizations in ways that didn't distort their cultures too quickly and radically. Don't give anyone phasers, say. The PD was wide open to individual interpretation and was full of holes and possible exceptions. The PD probably is meant to be partly put aside if Starfleet people are going to be killed, but they'd still want to limit interference to what's needed just to save their people.

Eminiar 7 might not be at a low enough technology level for the PD to apply.
 
The tech level issue doesn't seem to exist in the TNG era: both Bajor and the Klingon Empire, cultures operating warp-capable vessels and interacting extensively in the interstellar community, have been quoted as deserving PD "protection" for their internal affairs at one time or another.

Whether a tech level issue existed in TOS... Hard to tell. It wasn't explicated, but the PD was mentioned only in connection with relatively primitive cultures, or cultures mistaken for primitive.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Timo, are we sure they weren't just talking about not interfering with another state's internal affairs, without the PD actually being involved? If the PD was being invoked with the Klingons, then the point of the PD totally changed at some point. It was supposed to be a comment on how powerful, technically-advanced Europeans devastated native societies and cultures by forcing contact on them. I think the Klingons could take care of themselves...
 
TNG is full of examples of Picard shirking away from interfering with the private affairs of others. However, Klingons in "Redemption" fall under the specific protection of what Picard calls the "noninterference principle".

Picard: "Mr Worf, I don't have to lecture you on the principle of noninterference. As Starfleet officers, we have all sworn an oath to uphold that principle whatever our personal feelings."

Considering that it's part of the sworn oath, it does sound as if Picard is speaking of the very same thing introduced in mid-TOS and also known as the Prime Directive and the General Order One.

And Admiral Chekote is adamant that the Prime Directive applies in the case of Bajoran internal affairs in "The Circle"; his use of this terminology is quite explicit there.

Timo Saloniemi
 
PICARD:Our people have a strict policy of non-interference in other cultures. It's our Prime Directive.
ANIJ: But at one time, we explored the galaxy just as you do.

PICARD:
You have warp capability?
ANIJ:
Capability, yes. But where can warp drive take us, except away from here?
PICARD: I ...apologize for our intrusion.
PICARD: ...and because they have warp capabilities, the consequences to their society are minimal.
The Prime Directive applies to pre-warp cultures, The noninterference with the Klingon Empire that Picard spoke of had to do with the separate issue of interfering with a sovereign power.

Not all "noninterference" matters would pertain to the Prime Directive. Not once in the entire two part Redemption episode does the Prime Directive get specifically mentioned. Non-interference does get mentioned on a few separate occasions, but always in connect to not interfering in "internal Klingon matters."

*************
As far as the oath is concerned, it would be easy to see Starfleet personnel taking a oath to a long wander list of subjects, when they first are commissioned.

*
 
The Prime Directive applies to pre-warp cultures

But nowhere is it said that it doesn't apply to post-warp ones, mind you.

And "The Circle" is explicit in the application of the Prime Directive to a known warp-capable society that is interacting with the interstellar community.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I'm not going to err on the side of interpreting Next Gen etc as saying the PD applies to everybody, because we don't have to, and it all makes more sense and is more consistent with the original purpose if we don't. Countries get into arguments about non-interference in each others' affairs today, all the time. China complains about interference in their internal affairs, every time the US government criticizes Chinese limits on human rights and free expression.


As for Bajor... I've wondered about them and warp drive. All of their ships seem to be just for travel inside their own solar system. They colonized a Gamma Quadrant planet, but they had help from the wormhole, and perhaps the Federation. Anyway, Starfleet people regularly interact with Bajorans, going down to the planet whenever they like. They may not give them dangerous technology, but they may have most of that already, and the ship seems to have sailed on cultural contamination. If the PD was referred to just in reference to Starfleet taking sides in a civil war, then we're back to the exact same situation as with the Klingons, and it was just sloppy on the part of the writers.
 
we don't have to

We do, in terms of evidence. DS9 "The Circle" is unambiguous about that. Whether the native culture is capable of warp, subspace radio or perhaps telepathic contact with alien species across interstellar ranges, or possibly occupied by a starfaring culture, makes no difference in PD applicability.

And why should it?

PD is about noninterference. It has never been about noncontact: Kirk readily interacted with primitives, and only worried about the PD when dealing with cultures on the verge of starflight. Establishing a treaty or a contract isn't interference, apparently. Only very specific actions or inactions are.

We never, ever learned that the PD would exist out of fear of our heroes "contaminating" a primitive culture with advanced technology. It was always about contamination by ideas. Technology does not appear to be an explicit factor, and should not be considered when interpreting a noninterference situation in the episodes, either.

Obviously, a culture that is technologically incapable of interstellar contact will be more "pristine" than technologically more advanced ones. But only if those technologically advanced cultures decide not to make contact for their part. Bajor was in contact whether it wanted or not, so technology made no difference. OTOH, Bajor had long enjoyed an interstellar reputation of some sort, suggesting contact going back much farther than the Cardassian occupation.

All of their ships seem to be just for travel inside their own solar system.

What is a "Bajoran ship"?

The very first one we saw in DS9, a triangular ship with triangular warp nacelles in "Past Prologue", was coming from outside the star system. It was thereafter seen operated by the Bajoran military, but also by Cardassians, perhaps indicating it was Cardassian tech left behind at the withdrawal. Whatever the origin, Bajorans could and did go interstellar with it.

We had already seen a Bajoran ship incapable of warp in "Ensign Ro". But the plot called for that ship to be inherently warp-capable, with only its state of disrepair creating a nasty surprise for the Cardassians who were trying to frame the Bajorans for an interstellar crime. And we later saw that very ship type performing interstellar operations for the Bajorans, first in "A Man Alone".

Finally, a ship type introduced in "Move Along Home" was later seen hauling parties of other faraway cultures across interstellar distances on behalf of the Bajorans - and eventually operated by an actual Bajoran ("Indiscretion"), definitely far outside the Bajoran system. Its twin hexagonal arrays were of the same type as the single one on the "Ensign Ro" ship, suggesting common design origin; other cues pointed to Cardassia and its Hideki class. And the design was seen in the hands of Cardassian satellite states, too. It's quite possible, then, that all of Bajor's current warp technology comes from Cardassia one way or another. It just doesn't make any difference.

Timo Saloniemi
 
The PD could have been changed slighlty from the TOS to the TNG era.

I agree. TNG’s “Too Short A Season” basically deconstructed the PD of the original series, telling us about a former Captain Mark Jameson who issued his own interpretation of the PD to two warring peoples on a planet: he armed one side with guns, as they requested, but then he secretly armed the other side with guns too, apparently thinking that by maintaining an equalibrium he could wash his hands of the ordeal and leave the planet to sort themselves out. The plot of the episode sees the elderly Jameson having to come back and face the consequences of his actions.

I’m certain there were many other horror stories like this in the post-TOS, pre-TNG era which led to the PD undergoing reform, and possibly becoming far more policed/enforced by the powers that be. Although possibly this episode was the catalyst for that reform, as Picard himself apparently broke it earlier in the same season (“Justice”).
 
What Jameson did was the same as what Kirk did in "A Private Little War" (indeed, the character was originally written as Kirk, to allow for Shatner to visit the Next Generation), so this incident essentially at most establishes that only the TNG era Starfleet gives a damn, while the TOS era Starfleet apparently didn't mind Kirk's doings.

Not that Starfleet would really give a damn, mind you. It's just Picard who is personally appalled, and Jameson who's having pangs of conscience mainly because his plan didn't work out too well. We don't know if Kirk's plan worked any better, and whether he ever regretted his actions (and whether this establishes that Jameson was the less morally corrupt of the two skippers).

How "secret" Jameson's actions were, we don't know. It's possible he had Starfleet's approval, and it's far from clear whether Kirk did. What we do know is that Jameson thought he was obeying the PD, even if "interpreting" it. I don't see signs of change in the letter or spirit of the PD in this particular example, either as a difference between the two cases of gunrunning, or as an indication that these incidents affected Starfleet thinking.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Timo, I'm impressed that you have all that data at your mental fingertips. I can't comment on most of it, until I get to watch Next Gen again.
We do know that they're not supposed to give phasers to stone-knives-and-bearskins planets. I'd bet that this was mentioned as being under the heading of the PD, and handing over much more advanced tech comes under the heading of "interference".
In "A Private Little War", the weaponry was kept as basic as possible while still giving their side the edge, a highly questionable policy, but it was an attempt to (just barely?) satisfy the requirements of the PD.
Different kinds of contact were permissible depending on the planet, because each planet's a different case. Sometimes it's judged that cultural contact would be disruptive, sometimes not. They have to do some research to find out.. as in the Next Gen ep "First Contact". That was all about the PD, but there was never any question of political interference with their government. It was a matter of the possible upheaval it would cause for the Feds to reveal that there's a great, big universe of aliens out there.
"Who Watches the Watchers" is a classic PD episode. It wasn't just that the researchers wanted "uncontaminated" observations-- when their presence was revealed, it became a violation of the PD, that Picard had to go to extreme lengths to try to fix. The interference was cultural and philosophical. With another planet, more advanced maybe, mere contact might not have been an issue, but the special circumstances of this planet meant that here, it was.
 
We do know that they're not supposed to give phasers to stone-knives-and-bearskins planets. [..] In "A Private Little War", the weaponry was kept as basic as possible while still giving their side the edge, a highly questionable policy, but it was an attempt to (just barely?) satisfy the requirements of the PD.

On the other hand, the planet "assisted" by Mark Jameson wasn't necessarily living in the stone-knives-and-bearskins era - remember that Jameson had visited those high-tech tunnels the last time around? The jump from what they had to what Jameson gave need not have been any greater than the jump from what Tyree's folks had to what the Klingons and Kirk gave them...

Timo Saloniemi
 
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