The Federation without Earth

[Arpy]

I don't think the Federation would be all that different without Humans in it, but I think many fans do.

I think many fans would put the "capital" on Vulcan in Earth's absence, seeing as how many fans see Humans and Vulcans as the two predominant species, but I attribute that to budget constraints and think they're on relatively equal status with most older memberworlds.

The idea that everything's on Earth seems wrong to me anyway. One good planet-buster torpedo or sun-bomb and there's the whole war. Plus, with a Starfleet population possibly in the hundreds of millions or low billions, they can't all be educated in San Francisco.

 

[Ensign_Redshirt]

Well, according to "Enterprise" the humans (Archer to be precise ) had to be there in order to make peace between the Vulcans and the Andorians.

With no peace between Vulcan and Andoria, there's no Federation either. Earth was a "neutral" power which was in the right place at the right time to do exactly this. The rest is history.

 

[T'Girl]

Destroying the Earth would no more remove the Federation from existence, than destroying Washington DC would do more than harm America. The Federation likely has sub-capitals on all member world to service their needs, like large America cities usual have a federal building somewhere. Just as America has a plan in place to reconstitute the government, if they're smart in the future, so will the Federation.

And of course the Federation is much more than just it government.

I doubt Starfleet numbers in the low billions. Several hundred thousands or low millions in Kirk's time, maybe tens of millions in Sisko's time. If Starfleet is ten to fifteen percent officers (US Navy is fifteen percent) then a single academy combined with other service schools could train the require number of officers.

Human's in Archer's time were depicted as the driving force behind both the Coalition of Planets and later the United Federation of Planets. I'm not sure in my own mind that the Federation would have come into existence without Earth's participation. Certainly the Federation would have been structured differently without Human input

.

 

[Arpy]

Well, according to "Enterprise" the humans (Archer to be precise ) had to be there in order to make peace between the Vulcans and the Andorians.

With no peace between Vulcan and Andoria, there's no Federation either. Earth was a "neutral" power which was in the right place at the right time to do exactly this. The rest is history.

Well, peace was facilitated or catalyzed by Humans but if it wasn't possible without us, the other aliens wouldn't be able to maintain the federation. It would naturally fall apart.

I don't want to undervalue the importance of individual actions - without them nothing gets done. But I'm apprehensive about overvaluing the Humans' importance. ...It rings of conceit.

...I think of the criticisms of some fans of Picard's speeches about "Humanity's evolution". It's not that we've magically evolved beyond our "lesser" emotions - which some seem to think he's saying. It's that we've grown up as a culture...we're more complex, reasonable, cooperative, compassionate, and aware. All through the work of countless billions over countless centuries, in a cold hard universe.

Similarly, Humanity should be proud of its actions because if we didn't take them, there may not have been a Federation. But that is "may". The other interstellar nations may have united otherwise, or at another time.

Still, because of us, and our earlier accomplishments (achieving world peace and prosperity for all Humanity) we managed to help the interstellar community do the same, to our mutual benefit.

 

[Arpy]

I doubt Starfleet numbers in the low billions. Several hundred thousands or low millions in Kirk's time, maybe tens of millions in Sisko's time. If Starfleet is ten to fifteen percent officers (US Navy is fifteen percent) then a single academy combined with other service schools could train the require number of officers.

I thought I was being conservative! We have 5 billion on Earth today. 150+ memberworlds, some with more than 5 billion (and only one planet) and some with less...even if it's 1% of the population going into the "warrior class", that's 7.5 billion.

I tell you, they portray the scale of these interstellar civilizations as poorly as they do that of interstellar space.

Certainly the Federation would have been structured differently without Human input

I wonder what it would have looked like.

Though, what they've got seems to have worked well, even with the addition of over a hundred new memberworlds. ...So it's not that we needed it and the other members appeased us.

 

[captcalhoun]

read the Myriad Universes story 'A Less Perfect Union' if you want a look at one vision of such a galaxy.

the story is set in a universe where Terra Prime succeeded in isolating Earth and whilst they have colonies and a starfleet, they are a commonwealth, apart from the Interstellar Coalition which comprises Vulcan, Andor, Tellar, Delta and many other worlds. the Coalition and Earth fought side by side against the Klingons out of necessity, but are otherwise rivals.

it's a damn good read.

 

[T'Girl]

I thought I was being conservative! We have 5 billion on Earth today. 150+ memberworlds, some with more than 5 billion (and only one planet) and some with less...even if it's 1% of the population going into the "warrior class", that's 7.5 billion.

Not all the "warriors" in the Federation would be in Starfleet, many of the duties you might ascribe to Starfleet would be carried out by individual Federation members. If Earth had a population of five billion and with maybe two hundred colonies another five billion. Then if Humans had one person in one thousand in uniform, that would give them a force of ten million. Enough to internally police, guard and defend it's little "realm." calling upon Starfleet only when it had to.

During TNG, when Romulans attempted to invade Vulcan, it was a Vulcan defense fleet that moved to intercept the invasion ships.

I believe many of the ships that started showing up in large numbers during the Dominion War came from one hundred and fifty different member defense forces.

Starfleet looks outward, diplomacy, exploration and external defense. fifteen or twenty million personnel would do that job. Backed up by the members, reserves, retirees, that would give the Federation over two billion "warriors."

 

[Timo]

...In any case, we see that Starfleet is no more capable of guarding the frontier than the US Cavalry in the late 19th century was. That is, arrival at the 11th hour, typically in nondecisive strength, is the very best they can do. If as many as 1% of the Feds really were in the warrior business (and that's enormous - which nation on Earth would have one citizen in hundred committed to its military, unless it's hotly engaged in war?), we'd see much more efficient response.

Destroying the Earth would no more remove the Federation from existence, than destroying Washington DC would do more than harm America.

I guess it wouldn't be that difficult to postulate circumstances where the USA would fall apart when it was proven that Washington DC could be destroyed (by a neat demonstration). If the UFP is a defensive alliance first and foremost, and proves incapable of defending even its own capital planet, then the odds of the alliance falling apart are pretty high. Higher than if a lesser world on the fringes were destroyed, at least.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Robert DeSoto]

Earth was crucial in bringing together Vulcan, Andor, Tellar etc. So politically Earth was essential because Earth was the only power trusted by everyone else since they were neutral.

But technologically and militarily, Earth was insignificant. Even tho Starfleet is responsible for Federation defense, it's obvious that Starfleet began using Vulcan, Andorian and Tellarite technology. Earth's own technology was pretty much inferior to everyone else. Why install polarized hull plating, when you can use Vulcan shields, tractor beams, high yield particle weapons etc.

 

[indolover]

From what we see humans and Vulcans are the driving force of the Federation. Most Starfleet officers of those species, as well as most officials, diplomats, etc. There are even Vulcan-only Starfleet ships.

But since the Federation has about 150 member worlds, then we really should see more aliens on starships.

 

[Finn]

There may be species where they don't care enough to join starfleet, just the benefits of being an UFP member.

 

[T'Girl]

There are even Vulcan-only Starfleet ships.

The Immunity Syndrome never refers to the Intrepid as a Starfleet vessel, the Vulcans do have their own ships.

DS9 does show a small Starfleet scout with a largely Vulcan crew, but it not clear if it's solely Vulcan.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The rather infamous old novel Killing Time takes place in an alternate timeline created by Romulan meddling, where Earth never got it's act together. The Vulcan Alliance exists in place of the Federation, a shambolic planet called Earth is a minor member. Spock is captain of the VSS ShiKahr, Ensign Kirk is a lowly drug addict routinely beaten by his sadistic human crewmates.

If it weren't for the unfortunate (yet unintentionally hilarious) K/S subtext the author tried to sneak in the book may have been great.

 

[neozeks]

DS9 does show a small Starfleet scout with a largely Vulcan crew, but it not clear if it's solely Vulcan.

A Nebula class is a small scout?

There's also the USS Hera captained by Geordi's mum and with a mostly Vulcan crew.

 

[Arpy]

There may be species where they don't care enough to join starfleet, just the benefits of being an UFP member.

I agree, but there could be 25 billion Arcturians with 3% of the population in the fleet. So I'm working the numbers with everybody equal and going from there.

…If as many as 1% of the Feds really were in the warrior business (and that's enormous - which nation on Earth would have one citizen in hundred committed to its military, unless it's hotly engaged in war?)…

I had no idea how many people were in the military and picked what I thought was a smaller number than likely. Luckily, I wasn't too far off if this page is accurate. It says about 2.7 million Americans are currently in the military. Still, cut that in half and it's still 3.75 billion people.

Plus, I think there are closer to 15-30+ billion people in each memberworld, not 5 billion. There are currently 6.85 billion people on Earth.

Anyone know what percent of people were in the military during the age of sail, when navies did more exploring? …Though for all we know Starfleet's numbers could be 10x higher or lower than either current or past ones.

(EDIT: new world pop figure/source.)

 

[Timo]

It says about 2.7 million Americans are currently in the military.

I did specify "hotly engaged in war"...

Plus, I think there are closer to 15-30+ billion people in each memberworld, not 5 billion.

Might be. Vulcan in STXI had six billion, despite not being particularly fertile. When Earth was Borgified in ST:FC, Data expressed surprise at it having a population of 9 billion - but we don't know if that was exceptionally low or exceptionally high. Also, most of the colonies we have seen have been tiny affairs, with populations numbering in the thousands rather than millions - yet in TAS "One of Our Planets is Missing", the very outermost of UFP colonies was said to have a population of "millions", possibly suggesting that colonies closer to the UFP core could be relatively heavily populated after all.

Anyone know what percent of people were in the military during the age of sail, when navies did more exploring?

The thing is, people really weren't "in the military" much those days. The navies would hire some full-time professionals to sail the ships, but most of the soldiers would be drafted as needed. In theory, 50% of the nation's population could be drafted in extreme crisis, while the other 50% would be engaged in the war effort in some way or another, too. And in practice, the major sailing nations of the era were engaged in war most of the time back then.

Let's have, say, the War of the Spanish Succession in the beginning of the 18th century - an Europe-rattling conflict with overseas intrigue, one where the nations couldn't afford to hold back. France committed some 225,000 men at the height of the crisis, and had a population of 21 million, being a true kingpin nation in Europe. The population of Spain at the time is a matter of some controversy, so their initial commitment of 20,000 troops might account for 0.4% (out of 5 million) or more like 0.2% (out of 10 million). When the war moved deep onto their turf, the number was increased about fivefold. But that'd be at the height of the crisis; and even there, at any given time, there'd be fewer men at arms, and of course there would have to be major lulls in fighting because the manpower was needed for harvesting as well. Only a tiny fraction of the forces would be professional soldiers - perhaps one per mil of the troops would commit themselves totally to the war.

England fought from an overseas position, so her contribution would have a greater percentage of professional fighters who would be expected to remain on a war footing all year around. The island supported about 5 million people at the time, and sent some 40,000 men in all. That was a back-breaking commitment, but proved worth the while, and is probably our best analogy to what the UFP might commit to an interstellar war that wasn't about ultimate survival.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[T'Girl]

Luckily, I wasn't too far off if this page is accurate. It says about 2.7 million Americans are currently in the military.

You're using a very old figure, end of Vietnam. The current force strength is less than 1.5 million or 0.47 percent of the American populace. If Starfleet were the counterpart to the US Navy, 1 person in 620 is in the navy.

Plus, I think there are closer to 15-30+ billion people in each memberworld, not 5 billion. There are currently 6.85 billion people on Earth.

The reason I gave five billion for the Earth (which of course is a guess) was that in the modern world the "developed" world has slow or no population growth, if you except immigrants. By the 23rd/24th centuries, the entire Earth will be "developed," When we seen the number of children that families have in the future of Star trek, it tends to be one or two children. We only seen (based solely on what we've seen) two large cities. Florida in the 22rd century, Iowa in the 23rd and France in the 24th look to be very low density and pastoral.

Colonies, on the other hand, I believe would tend to have relatively high population growth, by the time of Sisko many of Earth's colonies and former colonies would be over two centuries old. Some would pre-date the Federation. Located fairly close to Earth, they would receive ongoing immigration throughout their existence and they could easily possess populations of 100's of millions. Others would be brand new and only have a few thousand people.

 

[neozeks]

I think the limiting factor in determining the size of Starfleet isn't the Federation population but it's industrial capacity, the number of ships it can build and operate. There's no point in having a billions strong force if you have nothing to do with them. IIRC, the biggest estimate of Starfleet's size by the writers was 30,000 ships (I personally think it's even less, 3,000-10,000 ships). Multiple by 500 people as your average crew and then by, say, 3 to include starbase and other support personnel (maybe some 'marines' as well) and you get 45 million at most.

 

[Penta]

Neozeks: Yeah, I think 3k-10k is itself high, though. It can easily be a number that includes, say, Vulcan defense ships or Andorian ships "called up" to serve with Starfleet, as for the reserves or the National Guard today.

Besides, Starfleet has always seemed very thinly manned compared to their missions and responsibilities, in peacetime or wartime (or TOS-era cold war even).

 

[Timo]

...I wonder if there would be any difference between wartime and peacetime. Starfleet is already stretched horribly thin during the supposed peacetimes of TOS and TNG. The borders leak like a sieve, weird alien intruders appear on Earth's doorstep, help to colonial disasters arrives on the final minutes of the eleventh hour at the very earliest. If it were possible to build and crew more ships, surely this would be done?

I mean, we don't see any direct evidence of shipbuilding during the Dominion War, besides the fielding of USS Sao Paulo. And that conflict lasted for several years...

Perhaps the citizens of the UFP just plain don't want to serve in the "military", not even (and perhaps particularly not) during times of crisis? Perhaps there's no point in building more ships when one can't find crews for them? Could be backlash from the supposed evolution of a better, more tolerant, less confrontational mankind...

Timo Saloniemi