The Fall of Ben Sisko

[j3067]

It is a bitter truth of life that sometimes, only by accepting and committing to the decisions we've made, even ones that in retrospect are not good decisions, can we move on and recover.

Now that just sounds like a bummer of a bad fortune cookie. Accepting is one thing, committing is another.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

As much as it pains me to speak on the side of RBoE...I do think Sisko's command fitness was adequately addressed. In addition to Adm. Akaar, Commander Rogeiro clearly thought Sisko was walking a fine line but could find no actionable/defensible reason for him to be relieved. He was clearly uninspiring as captain, but functional.

I'm with you here.

If Rogeiro thought Sisko were unfit for duty, he could have spoken with the doctor and forced the captain to undergo a psych test but he clearly found Sisko fit, even if he didn't enjoy serving with him and felt Sisko was hurting crew morale.

 

[Sjaddix]

Well I agree in the Pos-2381 context. A Famous Leader like Sisko is probably going to get the benefit of the doubt because Starfleet needs everyone they can get especially their well known leaders. Still think there should be some review process though.

Agreed that there should be. I'll wait for the duology to come out to see how the issue will be dealt with, at least outside of the Starfleet framework.

There WAS a review- in Admiral Akaar's office. The head of Starfleet deemed him fit for duty. Later the president of the UFP found Sisko worthy of a sensitive and high-stakes diplomatic mission. If the commanding officer of ALL of starfleet and the president find him fit, why is there need of a psychological evaluation? Could a doctor undermine the decison of Akaar and Bacco? Would a doctor want to be in a situation to question their decisions?

I for one trust Akaar to size up the man and make that decision.

I meant Starfleet Medical. He is not a Psych Expert.

As for undermining, you don't tell the Doctor your decision in advance so there is no pressure. Yes, because the Doctor on a Starship can override the Captain in certain situations.

Although I am wondering something who is Sisko more loyal too, the Prophets or Starfleet be interesting to see what he did if those two ever came into conflict.

 

[Kertrats47]

Although I am wondering something who is Sisko more loyal too, the Prophets or Starfleet be interesting to see what he did if those two ever came into conflict.

At this point in his life? I'm not sure. But we have seen that conflict before. In the season six finale, "Tears of the Prophets," the Prophets told Sisko not to go on the mission to attack the Chintoka System. Admiral Ross said Sisko had to choose between following the Prophets' wishes and obeying Starfleet's orders. Sisko agreed to follow Admiral Ross' orders to deploy aboard the Defiant.

 

[Sjaddix]

Yeah I remember that and the Prophets were right. Pah Wraiths get unleashed and Dax gets killed. Which really is the problem, the Prophets can never be wrong given how they perceive time and space.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Yeah I remember that and the Prophets were right. Pah Wraiths get unleashed and Dax gets killed. Which really is the problem, the Prophets can never be wrong given how they perceive time and space.

Are you saying that the second time he got a warning from the Prophets--i.e. when he believes he's told that if he stays near the people he loves they'll die--he has an extra incentive?

 

[Sjaddix]

Even if thats true. The Prophets never said u have to be a douche and not even bother explaining things before u depart.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Even if thats true. The Prophets never said u have to be a douche and not even bother explaining things before u depart.

No one's saying that Sisko did it well, or as sensitively as possible.

 

[Sjaddix]

Also a main point though I find that inconsistent with his character.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

We're talking about clinical depression here, not sexuality. You generalise hugely, without proof.

But the stress of being closeted very frequently caused--and has caused--significant depression among the closeted, especially in high-stress positions like the one I mentioned. Having a burdensome secret, like the fact that you're gay, or the fact that the empirically verified gods you've built a relationship with seem to have told you that if you stay in contact with the people you love they'll die prematurely, wears at you.

Stress is very different from depression, as a psychological state.
People who can cope with stress - anyone who has a high-stress job - may not cope with depression.
Clinical depression affects a person far more than stress.

We're not saying that compartmentalization is a common reaction. I'm willing to concede that it's relatively rare. There's no reason to think that Sisko's incapable of it, especially given his pretty high performance in the years after the death of his wife.

What high performance in that period? 'Defiant' - the ship which Sisko has a small contribution in building, that didn't flew until DS9 season 3?
Unimpressive; at most, you can say Sisko was an average engineer.
By his own admission, he retreated in the metaphorical equivalent of a rabbit hole - and only came out when the prophets dealt with his depression.

In RBoE, he was 'consulted' by starfleet officers (NOT trained psychiatrists) in 5 minutes-long 'sessions'. This is NOT what I call a comprehensive check.
And then Sisko was given command over a ship that can destroy worlds in minutes.
His performance - during the borg attack and after - was mediocre (FAR from the level that he displayed during DS9).

(Edit_XYZ, how do you interpret that period in his life? I'm curious, especially since he seems to have been seriously depressed in that timeframe.)

As presented in RBoE, he was clinically depressed.


rfmcdpei, one other thing:
As per RBoE, his only 'warning' was the one from DS9 season 7. That was the only basis for Sisko constructing his paranoid 'deductions'; nowhere in the books is it even hinted that Sisko had more complete knowledge from his time with the prophets.
This 'he had more detailed information from his time in the celestial temple' is a rationalisation developed on this forum for Sisko's atrocious development in RBoE - one that has no support in the book.

 

[Sci]

And then Sisko was given command over a ship that can destroy worlds in minutes.
His performance - during the borg attack and after - was mediocre (FAR from the level that he displayed during DS9).

I was wondering when you'd get around to repeating some variation of your complaint about Starfleet being insufficiently creative and performing poorly during the Borg Invasion. It's your recurring complaint.

 

[rfmcdpei]

We're talking about clinical depression here, not sexuality. You generalise hugely, without proof.

But the stress of being closeted very frequently caused--and has caused--significant depression among the closeted, especially in high-stress positions like the one I mentioned. Having a burdensome secret, like the fact that you're gay, or the fact that the empirically verified gods you've built a relationship with seem to have told you that if you stay in contact with the people you love they'll die prematurely, wears at you.

Stress is very different from depression, as a psychological state.
People who can cope with stress - anyone who has a high-stress job - may not cope with depression.

Stress is different from depression, but the two conditions can interact readily. People who feel stressed about a particular situation, for instance, can sink into depression when faced with the situation and its implications, especially if they've a history of depression in the past.

What high performance in that period? 'Defiant' - the ship which Sisko has a small contribution in building, that didn't flew until DS9 season 3?

How many people develop new starship classes, or are involved in developing it?

Unimpressive; at most, you can say Sisko was an average engineer.

Did Scotty ever design a new class of starship, or play a role in a design process? LaForge?

His performance - during the borg attack and after - was mediocre (FAR from the level that he displayed during DS9).

Sisko did good, commanding one of the three ships that destroyed four of the six Borg cubes attacking Alonis and seriously damaged one other (I think). The inability of the three ships combined to destroy all six of the cubes speaks to the sheer disparity between Borg and Federation strength. As it stands, they bought Alonis enough time to survive almost entirely intact before the Caeliar assimilated the Borg.

As per RBoE, his only 'warning' was the one from DS9 season 7. That was the only basis for Sisko constructing his paranoid 'deductions'; nowhere in the books is it even hinted that Sisko had more complete knowledge from his time with the prophets.
This 'he had more detailed information from his time in the celestial temple' is a rationalisation developed on this forum for Sisko's atrocious development in RBoE - one that has no support in the book.

If that is the case, I'll have to change my views somewhat. I can't find my copy of RBoE now, but I'll be back when I do.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

How many people develop new starship classes, or are involved in developing it?
Did Scotty ever design a new class of starship, or play a role in a design process? LaForge?

In today's world - not many. Most people today barely master the maintenance of the more sophisticated technology they use.

In the trekverse, filled with geniuses (Scotty's and LaForge's level of competence qualify them as such), designing - that is to say, being part of a team that designs - a ship that didn't work properly until O'Brien got his hands on it is hardly impressive.

Sisko did good, commanding one of the three ships that destroyed four of the six Borg cubes attacking Alonis and seriously damaged one other (I think). The inability of the three ships combined to destroy all six of the cubes speaks to the sheer disparity between Borg and Federation strength. As it stands, they bought Alonis enough time to survive almost entirely intact before the Caeliar assimilated the Borg.

Sisko's tactics during the battle of Alonis were atrocius.

If Sisko played the cards right, the starfleet task force actually had a chance of stopping the borg without the use of deus ex machinas. He didn't - and the only reason Alonis survived was plot contrivance: the borg cubes 'froze' just after they neutralized the starfleet task force.

 

[DarKush]

But Sisko could have gone back to Starfleet without divorcing his wife. He didn't just isolate himself from his family to protect them, he broke up his family. Sure he sacrificed his happiness, but he sacrificed theirs as well.

I understand sacrificing your happiness for your family or fleeing to protect them but divorcing Kassidy, explaining himself via letter, and not taking the time to try to speak to Rebecca about what was happening, those were cowardly actions. I understand saying heros are flawed, but saying his actions toward his family were heroic is complete BS. Even if his heart was in the right place, his lack of communication is inexcusable.

He made some major bonehead moves, let down his family, and probably is emotional scarring his young daughter. Heroic, no. Realistic, yes. Does this affect his greatness as a character and starship captain? No.

I agree with a good deal of what you said here. I don't think it made sense for Sisko to take the actions that he did for one, or to at least explain why he was doing what he did to Kasidy. Kasidy was shown to be tough and resilient and supportive. She, and especially Rebecca, deserved better than to be given a cold shoulder. And we can't say for certain that Sisko abandoning his family will make them any safer at all. What we can reasonably say is that if something happens to them while he isn't around, he won't be able to do anything to help them, at least in the immediate.

I disagree slightly in terms of this being a realistic portrayal of Sisko. The Sisko that we saw on the show-would not have abandoned his family. So while humans in general let each other down all the time and Sisko himself let people down on the show and obviously now in the books, his love for family was always an important aspect of his character and it did affect his actions, making him even defy the Prophets.

I can only hope that DRGIII does the needed repairs for Sisko in his upcoming books. I guarantee you it won't be a blind buy like Rough Beasts were. I'm going to give the first book a very good once over to see if the character assassination of Sisko continues.

 

[rfmcdpei]

In the trekverse, filled with geniuses (Scotty's and LaForge's level of competence qualify them as such), designing - that is to say, being part of a team that designs - a ship that didn't work properly until O'Brien got his hands on it is hardly impressive.

Scotty and Laforge and O'Brien are exceptional individuals. Is there any reason to think they're typical even of Starfleet?

If Sisko played the cards right, the starfleet task force actually had a chance of stopping the borg without the use of deus ex machinas. He didn't - and the only reason Alonis survived was plot contrivance: the borg cubes 'froze' just after they neutralized the starfleet task force.

What tactics, specifically, would have worked? Keep in mind that Sisko was serving alongside Vaughn, a man who had been in Starfleet longer than Sisko was alive. If there was an evitable failure of tactics, I'm more inclined to think that it'd be the one Dax identified in Destiny of Starfleet ending up in unwinnable battles of attrition against superior forces.

That freezing was the only reason a lot of worlds survived, including Earth and Mars. Sisko bought Alonis enough time to survive for a short time through his crippling of the Borg task force. More, with the Borg forces present in the Alpha and Beta Quadrants, would probably have been an unrealistic hope. (Even if the six Borg cubes had been destroyed in-system, there were more than a thousand times as many Borg vessels in range.)

 

[rfmcdpei]

I agree with a good deal of what you said here. I don't think it made sense for Sisko to take the actions that he did for one, or to at least explain why he was doing what he did to Kasidy. Kasidy was shown to be tough and resilient and supportive. She, and especially Rebecca, deserved better than to be given a cold shoulder. And we can't say for certain that Sisko abandoning his family will make them any safer at all. What we can reasonably say is that if something happens to them while he isn't around, he won't be able to do anything to help them, at least in the immediate.

I disagree slightly in terms of this being a realistic portrayal of Sisko. The Sisko that we saw on the show-would not have abandoned his family. So while humans in general let each other down all the time and Sisko himself let people down on the show and obviously now in the books, his love for family was always an important aspect of his character and it did affect his actions, making him even defy the Prophets.

You've heard of the irresistible force paradox: "What happens when an unstoppable force meets an immovable object?" The paradox is resolved when the questioned person realizes that unstoppable forces and immovable objects can't both exist at the same time, that something has to give.

Sisko's not portrayed as being happy to leave his family and friends behind. He's consistently shown throughout as being very unhappy with the situation that he has found himself in. Faced with what he believes to be the certainty of his loved ones' early death if he stays and tries to sustain the close loving relationship he'd prefer, and knowing that he can't go against the Prophets' wishes, he makes the choice to compromise what can be compromised so what he thinks is the least bad thing can happen.

 

[DarKush]

^
None of that explains why Sisko couldn't talk to Jake or Kasidy and treat them like adults. That he couldn't give them a reason why he felt the need to do what he did. I don't think the book stated that their deaths were certain, only that Sisko felt something bad was in the offing. I might be wrong on that account, since I read the book over a year ago and a lot of details have been forgotten.

Nor does it explain why he left his family to plan Joseph's funeral. Or why he just didn't get on a ship and travel the stars by himself, making sure that no one was affected by their association with him.

 

[rfmcdpei]

None of that explains why Sisko couldn't talk to Jake or Kasidy and treat them like adults. That he couldn't give them a reason why he felt the need to do what he did.

RBoE seemed to be pretty clear that Sisko was using procrastination as a defense, to try to avoid directly confronting the issue more than he had to. Cowardly? Sure.

I don't think the book stated that their deaths were certain, only that Sisko felt something bad was in the offing. I might be wrong on that account, since I read the book over a year ago and a lot of details have been forgotten.

Sisko told Kasidy in his message back that the bad things were getting closer to home, the examples of bad things he gave being of people who were killed or, at best, suffered irreversible brain damage. I think we can assume that he believed the deaths of those he loved to be in the offing.

Nor does it explain why he left his family to plan Joseph's funeral.

Joseph's funeral occurred after the Borg assault on Alonis (among other worlds), just before he met with Akaar to get a ship, and perhaps a week before he returned to Bajor where Kasidy kicked him out. You've got the sequence wrong.

 

[MatthiasRussell]

But Sisko could have gone back to Starfleet without divorcing his wife. He didn't just isolate himself from his family to protect them, he broke up his family. Sure he sacrificed his happiness, but he sacrificed theirs as well.

I understand sacrificing your happiness for your family or fleeing to protect them but divorcing Kassidy, explaining himself via letter, and not taking the time to try to speak to Rebecca about what was happening, those were cowardly actions. I understand saying heros are flawed, but saying his actions toward his family were heroic is complete BS. Even if his heart was in the right place, his lack of communication is inexcusable.

He made some major bonehead moves, let down his family, and probably is emotional scarring his young daughter. Heroic, no. Realistic, yes. Does this affect his greatness as a character and starship captain? No.

I agree with a good deal of what you said here. I don't think it made sense for Sisko to take the actions that he did for one, or to at least explain why he was doing what he did to Kasidy. Kasidy was shown to be tough and resilient and supportive. She, and especially Rebecca, deserved better than to be given a cold shoulder. And we can't say for certain that Sisko abandoning his family will make them any safer at all. What we can reasonably say is that if something happens to them while he isn't around, he won't be able to do anything to help them, at least in the immediate.

I disagree slightly in terms of this being a realistic portrayal of Sisko. The Sisko that we saw on the show-would not have abandoned his family. So while humans in general let each other down all the time and Sisko himself let people down on the show and obviously now in the books, his love for family was always an important aspect of his character and it did affect his actions, making him even defy the Prophets.

I can only hope that DRGIII does the needed repairs for Sisko in his upcoming books. I guarantee you it won't be a blind buy like Rough Beasts were. I'm going to give the first book a very good once over to see if the character assassination of Sisko continues.

I don't think DRG III needs to repair the situation as much as maybe help us appreciate what is going on in Sisko's mind a bit better. In a discussiong with him at the startrek.com forums someone asked where Sisko's baseball is, if he left it at his house. DRG III said it was a good question, that he hadn't thought about it. I can understand Sisko making some bonehead moves. DRG III pointed out that Sisko had done it before; at the end of season 6 Sisko abandoned his post and Kassidy (taking his baseball) when he went to Earth. BUT he did go back when he got his head in order. However, he wasn't married with a family then. So I can believe that Sisko could make the decisions that he did but I'm not convinced that he would.

 

[Edit_XYZ]

In the trekverse, filled with geniuses (Scotty's and LaForge's level of competence qualify them as such), designing - that is to say, being part of a team that designs - a ship that didn't work properly until O'Brien got his hands on it is hardly impressive.

Scotty and Laforge and O'Brien are exceptional individuals. Is there any reason to think they're typical even of Starfleet?

That fact that during in canon and trek lit, there were presented many other persons of the same caliber (many - but not all - members of starfleet).

If Sisko played the cards right, the starfleet task force actually had a chance of stopping the borg without the use of deus ex machinas. He didn't - and the only reason Alonis survived was plot contrivance: the borg cubes 'froze' just after they neutralized the starfleet task force.

What tactics, specifically, would have worked? Keep in mind that Sisko was serving alongside Vaughn, a man who had been in Starfleet longer than Sisko was alive. If there was an evitable failure of tactics, I'm more inclined to think that it'd be the one Dax identified in Destiny of Starfleet ending up in unwinnable battles of attrition against superior forces.

We're talking about the Alonis battle - 6 cubes only. Sisko&Vaughn did not have the task of stopping the entire borg armada by themselves.

At one point in the battle, there were 2 starfleet ships (Sisko&Vaughn) and 3 borg cubes.

As for Sisko's tactical mistake:
When the borg cube started firing on the Alonis city, Sisko had 2 choices:

1. Put his ship in the path of the borg weapon.
What are the likely consequences of this decision? Sisko's ship will, most likely, be crippled. The Alonis city will, temporarily, survive.
Even if Sisko manages to destroy/disable the attacking cube (he did), Vaugh alone cannot win agaist 2 cubes.
The city Sisko tried to protect will survive for all of ~10 minutes before being destroyed along with the rest of Alonis.

2. Do not put his ship in the path of the borg weapon.
What are the likely consequences of this decision? Sisko will, very likely, destroy the borg cube without his ship suffering major damage. The Alonis city will be destroyed.
Sisko&Vaughn only have to deal with 2 borg cubes; these borg cubes can be destroyed by 2 kamikaze attacks on their part (as Vaughn proved).
Alonis will survive (minus one city).

Sisko prioritized saving a city for all of ~10 minutes to saving the rest of an entire world - Alonis. Which is a HUGE strategical mistake.

As it is, the only reason Alonis was not destroyed was plot-contrivance - the author chose not to let Sisko fail to such a degree by using a deus ex machina.


PS - I take it you skimmed RBoE and saw that Sisko's decisions were based only on the DS9 Season 7 warning, with no supplementary knowledge being alluded to or implied, yes?