The Fall of Ben Sisko

[Mage]

Lot's of people suffering from depression are very good at hiding it from others, either by acting as if nothing is wrong, or having people believe that their behavior is just part of there character. Except towards some friends and family, Sisko has not given Starfleet any direct signs that could lead them to believe he is suffering from depression. And the divorce is not a sign of that. People get divorced, it happens. Never was there a divorce where others thought 'Oh, this must mean that he/she is depressed'.

And sure, people can say that there are signs. Yes, there are. But would you know? How often don't we hear of people who commited suicide, leaving a note telling how depressed they were, and everyone says 'I can't believe it, he/she was always in such a good mood'. And yes, Sisko was acting surly, but his behavior towards the crew of the Robinson can be explained by so many reasons other then a depression.

I think for a lot of Sisko-fans it's very hard to deal with the fact their hero is not perfect. That's always difficult. I don't have that problem, because he was never a hero to me. I don't have hero's. Only people I admire. I admire the character of Sisko, but can also see that he is not perfect, that he has flaws. So, know that he has gone a path that a lot of people don't approve, they 'drop their hero'. I hope these people will still give the next two novels by DRGIII a change, to see if and how Sisko deals with this.

 

[Sci]

I think for a lot of Sisko-fans it's very hard to deal with the fact their hero is not perfect.

If one were to go by the complaints one finds on the TrekBBS, apparently Pocket Book has it out for Janeway (her arc in Before Dishonor), Sisko (his arc in Rough Beasts of Empire), and Picard (his arc in Destiny).

From this, I can only presume that Pocket Books in fact hates all Star Trek and is secretly attempting to sabotage the entire line and thereby go bankrupt. Or something.

 

[Mage]

I think for a lot of Sisko-fans it's very hard to deal with the fact their hero is not perfect.

If one were to go by the complaints one finds on the TrekBBS, apparently Pocket Book has it out for Janeway (her arc in Before Dishonor), Sisko (his arc in Rough Beasts of Empire), and Picard (his arc in Destiny).

From this, I can only presume that Pocket Books in fact hates all Star Trek and is secretly attempting to sabotage the entire line and thereby go bankrupt. Or something.

Sounds about right. Not the part about Pocket trying to do something like that, but fans actually thinking such things.

I mean, I can actually see DRGIII sitting in his office or study of where ever he likes to write, thinking: what can I do to deliberatly piss of the fans?? I mean, are there really fans out there who think that?

 

[Christopher]

Yes that was fine at the start of the journey which he eventually got over and moved on that is what you expect.

Which is exactly my point. RBoE is the first novel about Sisko in the post-Destiny era. It's the beginning of a new phase of storytelling. So it's the start of the journey -- again. So by your own words, you should expect this to be something he will get over in future books. So why the hell don't you?

Two Reasons. One, this is even worse seeing as while he may have been somewhat distant from Jake, he never just got up and dumped Jake.

If he had been convinced that staying with Jake would've endangered him, then of course he would've left Jake. It's dishonest to compare the situations and ignore the obvious differences between them.

Two, he already did this before as u said years ago and I don't need to see the same plots rehashed in the name of character development.

But as you just pointed out, it's not the same plot. First your objection is that his behavior is different in the two situations, then in the very next sentence your objection is that it's the same? Make up your mind!

I mean really if he wants to talk to the Prophets and really try all he has to do is Fly through the Wormhole. I am sure the Bajorans will give the Emissary a craft.

We already covered this, so if you're actually bothering to participate in this conversation with an open mind and listen to what the rest of us are saying, then you should already know this is a spurious and nonsensical objection.

At best its like ADD something which is over diagnosed.

I have no idea what you even think you're referring to here.

Its not discrimination If it affects performance. I am not saying anyone with a disposition should be denied a job but if they are undergoing bouts of depression at the time then I don't think they should be commanding a starship.

And you clearly aren't familiar with the subject, so you're not qualified to make that determination.

 

[Mage]

Christopher, thank you!!!!

 

[Sjaddix]

And I presume u have a medical degree or a degree in psychology christopher? That would make u an expert.

 

[Sci]

And I presume u have a medical degree or a degree in psychology christopher? That would make u an expert.

He may not have a medical or psychology degree, but I'm sure he knows how to spell the word "you."

Of course, one doesn't need to have a degree to recognize that clinical depression is a genuine medical condition and that one who suffers from clinical depression should not be discriminated against when it does not negatively impact job performance. Which Sisko's does not.

 

[rfmcdpei]

That is not even considering him doing no explanation, not divorcing face to face and the rather inconclusive nature of these so called signs of disaster. I mean really if he wants to talk to the Prophets and really try all he has to do is Fly through the Wormhole. I am sure the Bajorans will give the Emissary a craft.

Sisko based his actions on his experiences in the nine months of objective time he spent inside the Celestial Temple. These experiences suggested to him that if he stayed in contact with the people he loved, they would suffer tragic premature deaths. The predictive powers of the Prophets are real, and Sisko has more reason than most to believe in them.

I suspect that the decisive event occurred in the book, when Sisko tried to consult with the Prophets through an Orb one last time and experienced nothing. That experience seems to have confirmed Sisko's interpretation.

 

[Rush Limborg]

That is not even considering him doing no explanation, not divorcing face to face and the rather inconclusive nature of these so called signs of disaster. I mean really if he wants to talk to the Prophets and really try all he has to do is Fly through the Wormhole. I am sure the Bajorans will give the Emissary a craft.

Sisko based his actions on his experiences in the nine months of objective time he spent inside the Celestial Temple. These experiences suggested to him that if he stayed in contact with the people he loved, they would suffer tragic premature deaths. The predictive powers of the Prophets are real, and Sisko has more reason than most to believe in them.

Wait. If Sisko's 9-month experience in the Temple geve him insight into their minds and lines of thinking, then why did he leave the Temple in the first place?

 

[Christopher]

And I presume u have a medical degree or a degree in psychology christopher? That would make u an expert.

I have personal experience with clinical depression, both in myself and in my family. So yes, I'm a damn sight more knowledgeable about it than you are. Hell, anyone who's taken an elementary psych class, or just had enough compassion and decency to try to understand mental illness before dismissing it out of hand, would be more knowledgeable.

 

[rfmcdpei]

That is not even considering him doing no explanation, not divorcing face to face and the rather inconclusive nature of these so called signs of disaster. I mean really if he wants to talk to the Prophets and really try all he has to do is Fly through the Wormhole. I am sure the Bajorans will give the Emissary a craft.

Sisko based his actions on his experiences in the nine months of objective time he spent inside the Celestial Temple. These experiences suggested to him that if he stayed in contact with the people he loved, they would suffer tragic premature deaths. The predictive powers of the Prophets are real, and Sisko has more reason than most to believe in them.

Wait. If Sisko's 9-month experience in the Temple geve him insight into their minds and lines of thinking, then why did he leave the Temple in the first place?

Did he leave of his own choice? Was he sent by the Prophets? (Do we even know?)

 

[Sci]

That is not even considering him doing no explanation, not divorcing face to face and the rather inconclusive nature of these so called signs of disaster. I mean really if he wants to talk to the Prophets and really try all he has to do is Fly through the Wormhole. I am sure the Bajorans will give the Emissary a craft.

Sisko based his actions on his experiences in the nine months of objective time he spent inside the Celestial Temple. These experiences suggested to him that if he stayed in contact with the people he loved, they would suffer tragic premature deaths. The predictive powers of the Prophets are real, and Sisko has more reason than most to believe in them.

Wait. If Sisko's 9-month experience in the Temple geve him insight into their minds and lines of thinking, then why did he leave the Temple in the first place?

This question is a non sequitor. It's the equivalent of asking, "Wait. If you learned so much in college, why'd you graduate?"

He left the Wormhole because he and/or the Prophets decided it was time for him to leave, because he and/or they decided he had things he needed to do back in our realm. Such as, for instance, defeating the Parasites, which you may recall his return helped with.

 

[Rush Limborg]

Not a non sequiter at all. See, here's my point: wouldn't he, in his state in the Temple, have seen that kind of grief he'd experience coming?

Or was that somehow wiped out of his memory? Or...did the Prophets simply not let him have that ability to experience non-linear time..and somehow neglected to give him any warning of what was to come?

Frankly, if that's the case, it's as if they somehow decided to be come significantly less courteous to him, especially considering how before the Temple, they did give him a warning!


Frankly, with that, Sisko seems less and less like a character given in to depression and more and more like a man reaching his breaking point due to being stuck in a cruel universe which merely has it in for him, and Fate (and/or the Prophets) is obsessed with making him suffer!

(Interestingly enough...this universe seems to see fit to, again, blind all his firends and colleagues to the fact that he's going through chronic depression. As I said last page: if Sisko's decisions really can be attributed to a pshycological issue or emotional problem...then how did everyone around him--especially his Starfleet colleagues and friends--somehow miss it, and allow him to get his own command, again?)

 

[Sci]

Not a non sequiter at all. See, here's my point: wouldn't he, in his state in the Temple, have seen that kind of grief he'd experience coming?

Or was that somehow wiped out of his memory?

More likely that he saw what they saw whilst living in the Wormhole, but couldn't retain details of the information when he returned to linear time. He attempted (as we all do) to defy what he knew to be fate by staying with his family, and then watched as horrible things kept happening to his loved ones over the course of the next few years before finally deciding that he needed to leave them to protect them.

Frankly, if that's the case, it's as if they somehow decided to be come significantly less courteous to him,

The Prophets have always vacillated between being concerned for his welfare and being aloof and unempathetic.

(Interestingly enough...this universe seems to see fit to, again, blind all his firends and colleagues to the fact that he's going through chronic depression.

I don't think anyone's blinded to the fact that he's experiencing clinical depression. I think his first officer aboard the Robinson, amongst others, knows. But the fact of the matter is, it is not negatively impacting his job performance. And until it does, they can't remove him from command -- that would be deeply discriminatory and unjust.

(And that's to say nothing of the fact that the man is a hugely decorated war hero who practically won the Dominion War for the Federation, and of the fact that Starfleet just lost 40% of its ships and officer corps, and is therefore suffering from a dearth of qualified command officers.)

 

[Rush Limborg]

^Clinical Depression, by its very nature, is emotional compromise. The claim that it doesn't inherently affect his performance is very problematic, to say the least. If it causes him to behave irrationally in his personal life, it should be held to be gounds to legitimately fear it affecting him in his professional life. And if this depression is clinical, it isn't just the crew of the Robinson who should be held accountable.

Again--as I said a couple pages ago:

Let me put it this way:

You mention depression. You mention medication. You mention therepy. You mention dealing with the core of the problem.

Now...that begs for the question of why--in all these years of Sisko having this problem--no one, not even his closest friends, were able to see it, and see to it that he got the proper help.

In that case, it is they who are at fault for such neglect--and again, that is something GR would not have approved of, in the "role model" department. Human? Of course. Flawed? Naturally. But neglectful toward one's friends? Hardly--especially if he's the one in command.

Thus, my question is: when did this clinical depression start? Why didn't Julian Bashir, at the very least, take notice of it?

Furthermore...if someone were to have such a chronic psychological problem...would they be allowed to be in Starfleet in the first place? If this is true--

your brain is no longer capable of making this neurotransmitter in enough quantities to help you manage with daily life, the normal things like getting out of bed in time and going to work and having a normal relationship.

--then Sisko would surely be relieved of duty for being emotionally compromised. If not--the fault is that of his first officer and/or Dr. Bashir for somehow failing to see the signs. If not Bashir, the CMO of Sisko's new ship--

Which brings up one last point: if Sisko were truly given in to depression...what is he doing commanding his own ship?

Thus, my second question: How did he get the Robinson in the first place? This assumes he wasn't medically/psycologically "checked out" before getting back into active duty--which is absurd, dearth or not.

 

[F. King Daniel]

^And, as I said a few pages ago:

I would imagine, after the disasterous events of Destiny (with Starfleet being shorthanded and councellors working overtime dealing with the immediate grief of those who lost their homes and loved ones), now is very much a time such a plotline as Sisko's can believably continue on.

And then, there are the TOS-era captains we've seen (Garth, Tracey, Decker), and Barclay's ignored-for-years-and-years severe social anxiety. Not to mention some of the captains in Trek lit, like Captain Kenyon. Looked at from a real-life standpoint, Starfleet's mental health department is in need of a serious overhaul, to say the least. But, a perfect Starfleet makes for dull stories.

As does a perfect Sisko.

 

[rfmcdpei]

Now...that begs for the question of why--in all these years of Sisko having this problem--no one, not even his closest friends, were able to see it, and see to it that he got the proper help.

In that case, it is they who are at fault for such neglect--and again, that is something GR would not have approved of, in the "role model" department. Human? Of course. Flawed? Naturally. But neglectful toward one's friends? Hardly--especially if he's the one in command.

My impression is that while the founding elements of the depression had been in place for years, it was the events of 2381, including the Borg invasion and Vaughn's near-mortal wounding, that pushed him over the edge. The depression would have developed in the course of a year when other people had other issues, frankly.

Thus, my question is: when did this clinical depression start? Why didn't Julian Bashir, at the very least, take notice of it?

Why would Julian Bashir take note of it? Genetically engineered though Bashir may be, Sisko hadn't been a serving officer in Starfleet for years before RBOE's events.

How did he get the Robinson in the first place? This assumes he wasn't medically/psycologically "checked out" before getting back into active duty--which is absurd, dearth or not.

I'd think that the depression developed after he committed to his decision, first after meeting with Akaar then on Bajor.

 

[Sci]

^Clinical Depression, by its very nature, is emotional compromise. The claim that it doesn't inherently affect his performance is very problematic, to say the least. If it causes him to behave irrationally in his personal life, it should be held to be gounds to legitimately fear it affecting him in his professional life. And if this depression is clinical, it isn't just the crew of the Robinson who should be held accountable.

Again--as I said a couple pages ago:

Let me put it this way:

You mention depression. You mention medication. You mention therepy. You mention dealing with the core of the problem.

Now...that begs for the question of why--in all these years of Sisko having this problem--no one, not even his closest friends, were able to see it, and see to it that he got the proper help.

In that case, it is they who are at fault for such neglect--and again, that is something GR would not have approved of, in the "role model" department. Human? Of course. Flawed? Naturally. But neglectful toward one's friends? Hardly--especially if he's the one in command.

Thus, my question is: when did this clinical depression start? Why didn't Julian Bashir, at the very least, take notice of it?

Furthermore...if someone were to have such a chronic psychological problem...would they be allowed to be in Starfleet in the first place? If this is true--

your brain is no longer capable of making this neurotransmitter in enough quantities to help you manage with daily life, the normal things like getting out of bed in time and going to work and having a normal relationship.

--then Sisko would surely be relieved of duty for being emotionally compromised. If not--the fault is that of his first officer and/or Dr. Bashir for somehow failing to see the signs. If not Bashir, the CMO of Sisko's new ship--

Which brings up one last point: if Sisko were truly given in to depression...what is he doing commanding his own ship?

Thus, my second question: How did he get the Robinson in the first place? This assumes he wasn't medically/psycologically "checked out" before getting back into active duty--which is absurd, dearth or not.

Rush, do you understand that there are degrees of clinical depression, that sometimes it can affect someone's personal life but not impact their professional life? 'Cos you seem to be operating under the impression that it's always this uniform phenomenon that is inherently crippling in all aspects of one's functionality.

 

[Rush Limborg]

^I am simply working under the assumptions of the argument I was quoting--namely, that of Mage.

However--even without that, if his depression is such that it would lead him to make irrational decisions in his personal life, surely it is not that big of a stretch to be concerned that it would affect his professional life?

Now...

^And, as I said a few pages ago:

I would imagine, after the disasterous events of Destiny (with Starfleet being shorthanded and councellors working overtime dealing with the immediate grief of those who lost their homes and loved ones), now is very much a time such a plotline as Sisko's can believably continue on.

And then, there are the TOS-era captains we've seen (Garth, Tracey, Decker), and Barclay's ignored-for-years-and-years severe social anxiety. Not to mention some of the captains in Trek lit, like Captain Kenyon. Looked at from a real-life standpoint, Starfleet's mental health department is in need of a serious overhaul, to say the least. But, a perfect Starfleet makes for dull stories.

As does a perfect Sisko.

I understand imperfection. But what you are describing is a plot contrivance.

Gene Roddenberry and John D. F. Black emphasized in their guide for TOS writers--with the hugging-a-random-yeoman thing--that if you won't believe it on the bridge of an aircraft carrier, you wouldn't believe it on the bridge of the Enterprise.

Military or not...a moments reflection would not allow us to accept that Starfleet's mental health department is so incompetent--or at least, wouldn't address those imperfections whenever a slip through the cracks (i.e., Barclay) is exposed.

Furthermore...Barclay was not a captain. Surely the mental/psychological check-ups for command officers would be more strict than for junior lieutenants....

Finally--Garth, Tracy, and Decker weren't insane until they "snapped"--and in the case of Garth, he was committed. Tracy went rogue when he went insane...and Decker was only driven nuts the same episode in which he died.

 

[Sci]

^I am simply working under the assumptions of the argument I was quoting--namely, that of Mage.

So, in other words, no, you don't know much about clinical depression and haven't done any research yourself.

However--even without that, if his depression is such that it would lead him to make irrational decisions in his personal life, surely it is not that big of a stretch to be concerned that it would affect his professional life?

Prove it.