The whole co-workers/"We look damn good" scene might be the last scene of the entire show.
Spoilers The Falcon and Winter Soldier discussion
- Thread starter Turtletrekker
- Start date
Yup. That scene clearly follows right after the shield tossing sequence.
I had thought that would happen pretty early on (episode two or three), but considering where they both are right now, as well as the shield, it seems more likely that is indeed the conclusion.
That is an interesting catch. I rewatched the trailers yesterday, and I never noticed that.
A couple other points, I missed in my first post.
I was a little surprised we didn't get any scenes of Sam & Bucky together, or any with Zemo. I'm wondering if Zemo is connected to the Flag Smashers, or if whatever he's up to is going to be running parallel to their stuff.
I think it works well for the show to have Sam not immediately throw the shield around and be Captain America 2.0. We see he has his own problems to deal with on top of being asked to carry the burden which apparently he things is a too great thing for him to do - he clearly is not ready yet to step into Cap's shoes and become a national icon, which is why he took the "easy" way out ( for now i guess).
Walker will probably screw up at some point or perhaps not live up to the role, which is when Sam may decide it's time to do something about it but in the pilot he's not there yet.
One thing i found funny and well done is the real world issue of how Superheroes actually live day to day, including the reality of being part of the economy. How do they earn money for their private expenses? If you are part of a big team like the Avengers or the X-Men your living expenses, food and transportation are covered but what if you want to get a couple of beers with friends? Who pays the tab?
Not every superhero starts off rich like Tony Stark or is an inventor like Reed Richards, who may live off patents and licences of his inventions. "Regular" superheroes need to have some income and i really liked how they touched on that subject and how the economy ( in this case a bank) may be a fan but when it comes down to business and hard numbers a famous name doesn't help at all. The superhero genre sometimes needs this contact with reality to make it more interesting and real.
Walker will probably screw up at some point or perhaps not live up to the role, which is when Sam may decide it's time to do something about it but in the pilot he's not there yet.
One thing i found funny and well done is the real world issue of how Superheroes actually live day to day, including the reality of being part of the economy. How do they earn money for their private expenses? If you are part of a big team like the Avengers or the X-Men your living expenses, food and transportation are covered but what if you want to get a couple of beers with friends? Who pays the tab?
Not every superhero starts off rich like Tony Stark or is an inventor like Reed Richards, who may live off patents and licences of his inventions. "Regular" superheroes need to have some income and i really liked how they touched on that subject and how the economy ( in this case a bank) may be a fan but when it comes down to business and hard numbers a famous name doesn't help at all. The superhero genre sometimes needs this contact with reality to make it more interesting and real.
Similar to WandaVision this show seems to be on a bit of a slow burn with a quiet opening episode that will presumably ramp up as the series progresses. Indeed, aside from the very cinematic action scene at the start of the episode, this is very much typical character drama that you can find in any TV show.
That's not a complaint. WandaVision proved very much that a slow start and atypical of the usual MCU fare could ultimately result in a very satisfying and MCU-like development and conclusion and I have faith they can pull off something similar here
The storyline was still very engaging, and I like there are some clear parallels to the real world and not in a heavy-handed or preachy way. Indeed, in some cases the parallels would actually have been unintentional, with the similarities of the Blip essentially reinventing the world in much the same way pandemic has reinvented the real world, given IIRC, this was written and began filming before the pandemic.
Sam and Bucky's individual storylines are also very engrossing and though I eagerly await their inevitable teaming up and fighting evil together, I think could be entertained by either of their individual storylines playing out without their paths crossing .
Solid start and I eagerly await the next episode.
That's not a complaint. WandaVision proved very much that a slow start and atypical of the usual MCU fare could ultimately result in a very satisfying and MCU-like development and conclusion and I have faith they can pull off something similar here
The storyline was still very engaging, and I like there are some clear parallels to the real world and not in a heavy-handed or preachy way. Indeed, in some cases the parallels would actually have been unintentional, with the similarities of the Blip essentially reinventing the world in much the same way pandemic has reinvented the real world, given IIRC, this was written and began filming before the pandemic.
Sam and Bucky's individual storylines are also very engrossing and though I eagerly await their inevitable teaming up and fighting evil together, I think could be entertained by either of their individual storylines playing out without their paths crossing .
Solid start and I eagerly await the next episode.
Ed Brubaker has mixed feelings. I can hardly blame him, but the argument can and probably would be made that he didn't actually create the character of Bucky Barnes.
https://www.cbr.com/winter-soldier-...u626fvaCfS_lciTEibPzgBZArAauQ5bHNJ2QdmrA25_v8
https://www.cbr.com/winter-soldier-...u626fvaCfS_lciTEibPzgBZArAauQ5bHNJ2QdmrA25_v8
it annoys the hell out of me. The last thing you want is your mightiest hero’s running into financial issues. Between Pepper and T’Challa there’s plenty of private funds to go round even if the government didn’t step in. Fury sorted Clint out after all.
First half of the episode I thought Sam had plenty of money and sister wouldn’t take it, but after the bank scene I just got annoyed.
Either way, I’m sure even minor avengers like Sam could set up a patreon account and get funding.
But then it would run counter to the image of Superheroes, wouldn't it? Setting up a Go Fund Me or Patreon just takes out the cool factor, doesn't it? Most of them don't start this as a way of making money, that's not how Superheroes usually are done but i thought it was a nice touch here to connect them to reality. With Sam being a Vet he might get some retirement pay ( he had a job at the VA in Winter Soldier) but once they're full time Superheroes and don't get funded somehow it was always this thing fans could argue about.
Not much to say at this point. Clearly it's taking it's time on the set-up, and so far I like what I'm seeing. Needless to say, if Bucky tells that old guy the truth, it'll literally kill him. So don't do that...
One thing that I had rattling in the back of my brain though: correct me if I'm wrong but there should be TWO shields knocking around, right? One pristine and one sheered in two.
As you can see, when Steve left to return the stones he didn't have the shield with him (mostly probably because it was sheered in two during the battle) just a case with the stones and Mew-myuh. So the NOT broken one Old Man Rogers showed up with was likely the one from the alternate timeline/parallel universe in which he and Peggy lived out their lives (which raises all kinds of questions about what happened with THAT universe's Steve that was trapped in the ice, but that's a whole other discussion.) Also as a bit of a side note; there should also be two copies of the sceptre in this universe, though without the mind stone they're probably both inert.
I'm just wondering if this will end with Sam reclaiming the broken shield rather than the pretty one. I'm sure there's some people in Wakanda that'd be to repair it for him...
Also, I'm curious as to what happened with Old Man Rogers. Did he actually die off screen, or did he return to his parallel timeline? They're certainly acting like he's for sure dead both here and in 'Far From Home' (plus he's greyed out in the Marvel logo now, as is Tony & Nat.)
Did they even tell anyone about the time travel thing or did they just say he was killed in the melee with Thanos alongside Tony? What's even the official story? The moon conspiracy theory thing makes me suspect it was more the latter since the lack of a body would engender more uncertainly.
One thing that I had rattling in the back of my brain though: correct me if I'm wrong but there should be TWO shields knocking around, right? One pristine and one sheered in two.
As you can see, when Steve left to return the stones he didn't have the shield with him (mostly probably because it was sheered in two during the battle) just a case with the stones and Mew-myuh. So the NOT broken one Old Man Rogers showed up with was likely the one from the alternate timeline/parallel universe in which he and Peggy lived out their lives (which raises all kinds of questions about what happened with THAT universe's Steve that was trapped in the ice, but that's a whole other discussion.) Also as a bit of a side note; there should also be two copies of the sceptre in this universe, though without the mind stone they're probably both inert.
I'm just wondering if this will end with Sam reclaiming the broken shield rather than the pretty one. I'm sure there's some people in Wakanda that'd be to repair it for him...
Also, I'm curious as to what happened with Old Man Rogers. Did he actually die off screen, or did he return to his parallel timeline? They're certainly acting like he's for sure dead both here and in 'Far From Home' (plus he's greyed out in the Marvel logo now, as is Tony & Nat.)
Did they even tell anyone about the time travel thing or did they just say he was killed in the melee with Thanos alongside Tony? What's even the official story? The moon conspiracy theory thing makes me suspect it was more the latter since the lack of a body would engender more uncertainly.
If they ever do Heroes for Hire, Luke and Danny will 100% have a Patreon.
Yup, I loved that focus, too. I think that's one of the reasons why so many people love Spider-Man: He's the working-man superhero (more so in the comics since he's still in high school in the movies). For a long time after graduating college, he was constantly living check-to-check, often actually making money from his superhero exploits, if indirectly.
Those were two separate storylines. Steve became Nomad in the Seventies following a betrayal at the highest levels of the US government. He became The Captain in the Eighties when the US government strips him of the title and uniform of Captain America, turning the role over to John Walker. So he becomes The Captain. The Captain's uniform would later be adopted by John Walker and he uses a variant of it today.
Oh, that's a good point. I didn't think about that while watching the episode. I don't know if the show will address that and just go with the simpler route by having Sam reclaim the pristine. But I would gladly accept being wrong on the count.
I wondered about that, too, and I thought for a moment that Sam was going to Cap's funeral when Sam was getting into his dark suit. Maybe he'll make a surprise appearance at some point as a quiet counselor when things get bleak?
Per Far From Home, Cap is considered dead in the public's eye.
Yup, definitely. I hate the idea of people having to live day by day with Patreon in general (that's a sure sign of a broken economic system, but that's another argument for another time), but I agree that it makes for Heroes for Hire to use it.
Just recently Kevin Feige confirmed that Chris Evans is done with the role and they have no plans to bring him back, so a cameo is not in the cards. Then again this is showbusiness and misdirection aka lying is not something they haven't heard of - i could see Evans reprise the role for a very short cameo that may be filmed in a couple of hours just for fun ( like he did in Thor: Dark World when Loki changed into him to mock Thor).
Would be cool to see Evans as old Steve but i would be fine if he didn't appear - Steve's story is done and has been wrapped up very nicely.
Yeah, to be clear, I'm fine with Steve not appearing and his story ended perfectly. I was just pondering out loud about the outside chance of a surprise cameo since he's actually still alive (last we saw).
To go back to the money issue, Sam did say he had money coming from government contract work, so at least in his case there is always a chance he was also doing that kind of thing on the side while the Avengers were still active.
I've never been real clear if the being an Avenger was meant to be a 24/7 thing, or if they just came together when there was a big crisis.
If they did have breaks from Avengering between movies, then the other characters could have had side gigs too.
I've never been real clear if the being an Avenger was meant to be a 24/7 thing, or if they just came together when there was a big crisis.
If they did have breaks from Avengering between movies, then the other characters could have had side gigs too.
Probably but then again these are issues only us nerds care about and since they are not integral to the movie storylines they don't "waste" time on such details ( apart from the Steve quip about not being able to afford a place in Brooklyn and living in an apartment in Winter Soldier). However i could easily see people setting up money campaigns for their favorite heroes and people actally donating - i've seen stories where people set up campaigns for homeless people and others, stories went viral and people all around the world donated until there hundreds of thousands of dollars in the campaign.
Then again Tony could have easily put a million into each Avenger's bank account without breaking a sweat but then we wouldn't get that storyline in the show
Keep in mind that Sam was a wanted fugitive for 2 years, during which time any holdings and savings he had would've been seized. And even though he was pardoned the government may have not given him back everything.
Go ask Pepper? We don't know what happened to Stark Industries in the 5 year gap, it might not have a lot of spare cash at the moment. Or if Pepper still runs the business anyways.
Go ask Pepper? We don't know what happened to Stark Industries in the 5 year gap, it might not have a lot of spare cash at the moment. Or if Pepper still runs the business anyways.
That opening action sequence was fantastic. It's always fun to see Falcon in action, he has such a fast-paced and visually dynamic kind of ability set.
But the real meat here was the setup for our two main gents. I have to say I'm digging it so far. Sam is looking to the past so he doesn't have to contemplate a future he doesn't think he's ready for or worthy of. And Bucky can't have a future yet, because he's still so trapped by his traumatic past. The subplot with the old man whose son the Soldier killed really hit a spot. Bucky has information that, while it will undoubtedly hurt, will ultimately help put the poor man's heart to rest. But in order to give him that Bucky has to face the potential rage and hate that comes with telling this kind gentleman that he's been drinking with the man who murdered his son.
I'm a little disappointed that Sam didn't see that ending coming. It's clear that he thought Cap "died" with Steve, but it feels a bit naive that he wouldn't have recognized the power in that symbol, and that somebody in the government somewhere would attempt to capitalize on it. I liked Rhodey's dialogue with Sam at the museum, however. Rhodey is trying to be supportive of Sam's choice, even though he pretty clearly doesn't agree with it.
I'm really curious now how they are going to tie Zemo into this. The Flag Smashers seem like an interesting idea for villains already, and the group somehow having a super soldier ups the ante. Also, I'm betting that's why Sam gets Bucky involved, as you can use a super soldier to fight a super soldier. But Zemo remains a wildcard. Will he tie into the Flag Smashers somehow? Or attempt to coopt the group in some way after the fact? Hopefully we get some movement on that front next week.
John Walker remains an enigma as well. Have they hidden a ton of his material and intentionally kept it out of trailers because of some kind of surprise or twist a la Grogu? Or is he exiting stage left promptly to free up that shield for Sam again? I'm hoping for the former, but kind of expecting the latter. I feel like it would be a waste not to use the character as an antagonist for Sam and Bucky for at least a little bit, but I don't necessarily want the character to be a villain either. Walker choosing to give the shield to Sam when that moment finally comes seems like the best solution to me, but we'll see how this plays out for the next month and a half.
But the real meat here was the setup for our two main gents. I have to say I'm digging it so far. Sam is looking to the past so he doesn't have to contemplate a future he doesn't think he's ready for or worthy of. And Bucky can't have a future yet, because he's still so trapped by his traumatic past. The subplot with the old man whose son the Soldier killed really hit a spot. Bucky has information that, while it will undoubtedly hurt, will ultimately help put the poor man's heart to rest. But in order to give him that Bucky has to face the potential rage and hate that comes with telling this kind gentleman that he's been drinking with the man who murdered his son.
I'm a little disappointed that Sam didn't see that ending coming. It's clear that he thought Cap "died" with Steve, but it feels a bit naive that he wouldn't have recognized the power in that symbol, and that somebody in the government somewhere would attempt to capitalize on it. I liked Rhodey's dialogue with Sam at the museum, however. Rhodey is trying to be supportive of Sam's choice, even though he pretty clearly doesn't agree with it.
I'm really curious now how they are going to tie Zemo into this. The Flag Smashers seem like an interesting idea for villains already, and the group somehow having a super soldier ups the ante. Also, I'm betting that's why Sam gets Bucky involved, as you can use a super soldier to fight a super soldier. But Zemo remains a wildcard. Will he tie into the Flag Smashers somehow? Or attempt to coopt the group in some way after the fact? Hopefully we get some movement on that front next week.
John Walker remains an enigma as well. Have they hidden a ton of his material and intentionally kept it out of trailers because of some kind of surprise or twist a la Grogu? Or is he exiting stage left promptly to free up that shield for Sam again? I'm hoping for the former, but kind of expecting the latter. I feel like it would be a waste not to use the character as an antagonist for Sam and Bucky for at least a little bit, but I don't necessarily want the character to be a villain either. Walker choosing to give the shield to Sam when that moment finally comes seems like the best solution to me, but we'll see how this plays out for the next month and a half.
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