Follow along with the video below to see how to install our site as a web app on your home screen.
Note: This feature may not be available in some browsers.
Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!
No, it isn't, not in this case. As I said, the vast majority of interrogation experts agree that torture is ineffective as a means of extracting reliable intelligence. Either people will lie and say whatever they think you want to hear in order to get the pain to stop, or the stress of the torture will actually impair their memory and mental clarity.
I'm not sure why you thought I was talking specifically about torture when I mentioned "violence and force" and did not mention torture at all. I do agree that torture isn't the most effective method, although I wouldn't go so far as "ineffective". It is, of course, immoral regardless of the degree of effectiveness.
Back to my point, violence and force are indisputably means that can work towards and end.
I'm sorry, that sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. I find a lot more drama in an interaction driven by competing ideas and emotions than there is in a merely physical confrontation. I consider the latter to be more "action" than "drama."
If you'll more carefully note my wording, you'll see that I state that "only" talking is boring and specifically state that a combination of methods is interesting.
Because you were replying to my point which was about torture. I was reminding you of the specific point I was making in the first place. If you weren't talking about torture, why even say it in response to me when I was talking about that?
The only time I'm annoyed by this kind of stuff is when it doesn't seem appropriate for the character or situation and so far I haven't really found that the be the case. The scene with the chicken guy might have been borderline, but the way they had Naomi calling Holden out on it makes it seem like that was supposed to be the case, and it was perfectly in character for Amos.
This is clearly a case of personal taste, so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
I have to agree with your take on it. It's not out of character for these specific characters. Amos is unstable and Bobbi is trained in violence basically. Neither are intelligence experts trying to most efficiently extract information.
Take Bobbi and Marsten, that's more like a mugging than torture. She's in his office where she knows he has the info and it's more like, I'll pummel you until you give me the specific thing I want that I know you have right here and right now. Unfortunately, these darker, violent aspect are realistic. How else is a typical grunt going to get what she wants? She's not a trained interrogator!
That said, I can see how people have different thresholds and tastes for this sort of thing. Mine aren't that high but I don't find the series to be too bad. Obviously, the characters do things that are questionable but I don't take that as the showrunners condoning those behaviors.
Because you were replying to my point which was about torture. I was reminding you of the specific point I was making in the first place. If you weren't talking about torture, why even say it in response to me when I was talking about that?
No, I checked. I was replying to Crazy Eddy's points, not yours.
I agree that torture is not the most effective but I don't equate what Bobbi and Amos do to torture. These are grunts who just view force as a means to an end. Distasteful for sure but not out of character and not a pro-torture sentiment.
I'm not talking about anything of the sort. I'm talking about what's dramatically interesting. I'm not saying it would have to be about intellectual discourse, I'm talking about writing and casting a character as someone who has considerable charisma and cunning and can win a battle of wits and willpower with someone else -- whether it's through winning them over to her point of view or just finding a way to outsmart and outmaneuver them so that they have no choice but to back down. True, some people can't be reasoned with, but they can still be leveraged and outmatched by someone cleverer. I'm talking about the sort of thing Avasarala does all the time on the show. She doesn't go around punching people (although there was that one scene in her first episode where she tortured a Belter, and I'm still not happy about that); she talks people into submission, whether through reason, manipulation, political gamesmanship, or whatever. And she does it as much through the strength of her personality, her unbending confidence and will, as through the substance of her arguments. And Shohreh Aghdashloo is a strong and charismatic enough actress to make that credible. Frankie Adams is not. She comes off as weak and confused, much less impressive than I gather her book counterpart is supposed to be. And that makes her less interesting to watch as a TV character. If she'd gotten the data from Martens any other way -- whether by reasoned argument, by earning his empathy through emotional appeal, by finding some exploitable flaw in his strategy that she could use as leverage, by bluffing or tricking him, or whatever -- it would've been more interesting to watch than just hitting him a bunch of times. But it would take a stronger actress to be convincing that she could do any of those things.
Even if Frankie Adams was the kind of actor you're talking about, that wouldn't change the fact that Bobbi isn't that kind of character.
And another point, they weren't really trying to get chicken guy to give them information, they were just trying to get him to do what the wanted, and violence can be an effective, but not necessarily the ideal, way to get people to do what you want.
I can't remember with Bobbi was her goal to the information from him or was she just trying to get to his tablet thing and then get out of there?
Even if Frankie Adams was the kind of actor you're talking about, that wouldn't change the fact that Bobbi isn't that kind of character.
And another point, they weren't really trying to get chicken guy to give them information, they were just trying to get him to do what the wanted, and violence can be an effective, but not necessarily the ideal, way to get people to do what you want.
I can't remember with Bobbi was her goal to the information from him or was she just trying to get to his tablet thing and then get out of there?
This was more like a mugging than an interrogation, although it had elements of both. If you don't give me what you have on you right now, I'll hurt you. She got the pad with the info on it.
An interrogation would've had multiple sessions to draw out lots of information, maybe things they weren't even aware of. It's more of an extended process, more elaborate, and designed to draw out more detailed information that they have in their heads.
That was pretty much what I thought, but then I after Christopher's posts I was wondering if maybe I either remembered wrong, or misunderstood the way things played out.
Well, when a pissed off Marine is standing over you repeatedly punching you in the face shouting
"What!" POW "Killed!" POW "My!" POW "Team!" POW
The easy way to stop the punching-of-my-face is to point at the hand terminal sitting three feet away from you that literally answers that exact question.
It's not really even torture in that case, it's basically a mugging. You can't get people to give up intelligence by torturing them, but you CAN punch someone in the face until he hands over his iPod.
I'm sorry, that sounds like a contradiction in terms to me. I find a lot more drama in an interaction driven by competing ideas and emotions than there is in a merely physical confrontation.
Sometimes, but not always. Alistair Reynolds' "Pushing Ice" ground to a screeching halt multiple times immediately after one character or another utters the words "I want to negotiate."
I really don't understand what Captain Martens's job is at this point. When he's first introduced he's recognized by Bobbi based on some decoration on his uniform as a chaplain, which he confirms. Since then, everything he does is outside the job description for a chaplain, including in this episode where he's getting live updates of an active black ops mission as its happening, to say nothing of him being the keeper of classified intel involving the protomolecule and is apparently a driving force behind getting a sample of it for Mars, and might even be connected to the stuff on Ganymede..
For some reason they merged Martens' character with Thorssen (the black guy with the focus drugs) immediately after Bobbi's debriefing. Almost everything Martens says or does in the last two episodes was Thorssen's actions/dialog in the novels with Martens basically taking the role as a counselor/confidante with nothing more meaningful to say except to point out that Bobbi definitely has some form of PTSD and really needs to talk to a counselor before she makes any life-changing decisions.
Hell, he could have just been any old Martian officer and a friend of the Draper family and it would probably make a lot more sense at the moment.
I'm talking about the sort of thing Avasarala does all the time on the show. She doesn't go around punching people (although there was that one scene in her first episode where she tortured a Belter, and I'm still not happy about that); she talks people into submission, whether through reason, manipulation, political gamesmanship, or whatever.
That "whatever" is, in a lot of ways it's actually WORSE than violence. Where as Bobbi will only punch you in the face until you give up your hand terminal and Amos might shoot you in the kneecaps, Avasarala will freeze your assets, have your children arrested and held without charge, put three liens on your house, and basically end your entire career as you know it if you so much as cough at her without permission.
There's also one of my favorite lines from Caliban's War:
"This is undersecretary Chrisjen Avasarala of the United Nations of Earth. I am about to be attacked by a rogue element of the U.N. Navy while on my way to a peacekeeping mission in the Jupiter System. Fucking save me! I will reward you be talking my government out of glassing your planet!"
And she does it as much through the strength of her personality, her unbending confidence and will, as through the substance of her arguments.
There's not usually anything substantive in Avasarala's arguments, which I think is the point you're kind of missing. The only time she ever asks for anything is because you either owe her a favor or she actually has you by the balls and knows good and damn well you will not say no to her. She doesn't CONVINCE anyone of anything at all, just helps people to understand how fucked they already are if they try to disagree with her.
This is the essence of violence, just applied more craftily: you establish dominance FIRST, and then make your demands known. This is the thing that makes Avasarala such an effective politician that even when she's not in charge, she basically is.
She comes off as weak and confused, much less impressive than I gather her book counterpart is supposed to be.
Not at this stage of the story. "Caliban's War" has Bobbi obsessively cleaning her weapon, field stripping her powered armor, having very vivid and intrusive flashbacks to the fight on Ganymede and having a full-on panic attack the moment she sees the sky. The series is trying to depict her as troubled but otherwise functional; in the novels, she was BARELY that and experiencing very clear symptoms of PTSD.
If they're building her towards some sort of redemptive catharsis, they haven't really played up that angle yet. But her depiction in the novels was very much "wounded warrior" and she was a hell of a lot more passive even than this. For her to actually TRICK Martens or Thorssen into giving up information would be a huge departure from the way she was written and even from anything relevant to her character arc: that is, she's traumatized, wounded, and obsessed with revenge. Avasarala is the subtle manipulative mastermind who uses words as weapons; Bobbi, on the other hand, leans on her strengths, and her number one strength is the ability to distribute violence.
Another one of my favorite quotes: "When you need to drive in a nail, you get a hammer. When you need to weld something, you get a torch. And when you need a kill a whole lot of people, you get Bobbi Draper."
For those who thought the "slingshot" scene was a mess and/or contained inaccuracies, the show runner admitted as such in a post the night before the episode aired: (my apologies if this link has been posted before)
A very refreshing attitude for a TV producer, IMO. They team has also acknowledged in podcast that they have goofed on lighting Jupiter in the effects shots, and that they will so better in season 3. And they promise better gravity slingshots in season 3. (Us readers know what he means, but that's all that needs to be said)
I'm just getting started on season two now. Awesome show.
Tech question: why did they depressurize the Rocinante at the beginning of the battle in "Doors & Corners"? I was guessing so the ship would be more stable during a hull breach, but to my knowledge this is the first time they've done anything like this in any space battle ever realized on film. Also, the (albeit much larger) Donnager didn't depress when heading into battle in "CQB" last year. Thoughts?
Don't think so, but then we can sit around all day pointing out alternative tactics and strategies that should have been employed in battles seen on TV and films.
I would guess it's probably less practical for a large warship to depressurize for a battle where it was ambushed than it is for a gunship going into a battle where it is doing the ambushing.
That's fair, though it probably wouldn't have taken THAT much effort; or, they figure that there isn't enough air on the Donnager to make large scale venting an issue considering her mass. Still, they did order everyone into space suits at some point, and the ship seemed really compartmentalized anyway. Further still, the Donnager's captain was really confident that they could destroy the stealth ships without breaking a sweat. Should she REALLY have gone into battle expecting a true brawl as the Roci later did, she may well have removed the air too.
I've re-watched the Doors & Corners battle again, and when the Roci was prepping, Naomi mentioned she hated that part; and Holden countered that they HAD to because they were expecting to be pincushioned in the battle. Sure enough, they were, and frankly it's crazy to see them NOT lose anything when they were hit. Still, it makes you wonder what the opposing ship looked like on the inside when they stopped fighting.
Aside: I grew up in the 1980s, and "Thunderbirds 2086" was one of my favorite shows. The English dub of that anime had a space station as a recurring location, and it was called "Rocinante" as well. Small universe.
No, the bridge crew anyway remained in shirt-sleeves right to the end. Holden and his crew were ordered into spacesuits, but that was because they were being taken to the depressurized launch bay.
That was a very good episode. i hope Avasarala and gang escape from Jules-Pierre Mao's ship in one piece. BTW did Errinwright kinda ordered Mao to kill Avasarala and her group ?
I don't know, this episode felt like padding to me. Alex and Holden spend the episode hunting the protomolecule man, with Holden singularly obsessed with getting it, only to give up in the end. Naomi and Amos return to the freighter, where Naomi is needed because predictably the one repairing it doesn't know shit about repairs. A restless crowd grows outside the ship, which can't hold everyone, so after a lot of worrying over what to do, everything works out in the end with women and children permitted to board and everyone else abides with this because of Belter pride.
The stuff with Errinwright was actually pretty good, sadly this was a minor plot to the episode. Bobbie is actually starting to kind of resemble the character in the novels, particularly in the scene between her and Avasarala's bodyguard.
Presumably next week is going to line up with the end of the second novel, we're more or less at the climax to it now. Thing is, I suspect it's going to be a rush job to get to the end in only one hour, and I'm 100% sure they'll want to end the season on the cliffhanger the book ends on.
