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The Expanse season 2

or maybe he's not a chaplain at all but as chaplain is the sort of person people often open up to after bad experiences pretending to be one could get him further with Bobbi than a plain old superior office.
Thing is, Bobbi immediately has a negative reaction to him because he's a chaplain, and as she apparently specified secular on her forms, pretending to be a chaplain seems like a wrong move for him to get her trust.

Sadly, this comes off as something else they're doing differently from the books just for the sake of being different. In the books, Martens is actually a good guy and helps Bobbi get word to Avasarala at expense to his own military career. He's still a chaplain, but also a qualified grief counselor who Bobbi is required to see to help deal with the trauma of losing her squad.

They could have just used any one of many corrupt Martian officers that show up in the novels or just made up someone new, instead they go with the chaplain probably thinking we'd never expect that. Which we wouldn't, because it doesn't make a lot of sense.
 
or maybe he's not a chaplain at all but as chaplain is the sort of person people often open up to after bad experiences pretending to be one could get him further with Bobbi than a plain old superior office.
Maybe he is a Soviet style political officer. A Martian commissar if you like. He did rant about how Bobbi's generation seem too relaxed in the face of Earth's threat. That might explain why he was getting intelligent briefing. Soviet political Commissar were often privy to top secret information. They also consoled and advised soldiers when needed.
 
That was a lovely gravity-dance the Roci mapped out for getting to Ganymede. Ain't Newtonian physics grand?

But as Christopher pointed out, it probably would have actually taken weeks.
 
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Sometimes the incongruity between the good science of this show's concepts and the bad science of their execution really gets on my nerves. Good: Alex using a convoluted gravity-assist maneuver around Jupiter's moons to get to Ganymede without using engines. Bad: portraying it as a roller-coaster ride taking only seconds to swoop between moons that are almost right next to each other. The bodies in question are hundreds of thousands of kilometers apart, so that trajectory would be a few million km long and would probably take a week or more to complete.

Also, that shot of the Rocinante ducking behind that one moon to avoid the Martian cruiser had a huge problem of scale. The moon looked no bigger relative to the Roci than Tycho Station did in earlier episodes. But it was spherical and icy white, so it pretty much had to be Europa, which is over 3000 kilometers across, nearly as big as Earth's Moon.

I'm also not crazy about the trend this show is taking toward torture porn. I hated the bit where Holden said that he was fine with bashing skulls in if it stopped the protomolecule and saved more lives. That's based on the dangerous and evil lie that torture actually works in the first place, that it actually would save lives and can therefore be justified in extreme cases -- which is really not the case, as most interrogation experts agree that torture actually makes it harder to get reliable intelligence from people. Okay, granted, they seem to be showing that Holden is losing his way and going to a dark place, so maybe that's the intent. But we saw the same implied attitude toward torture again when Bobbi beat her superior into a confession and it actually worked. I was refreshed some weeks back when they got intelligence out of that protomolecule researcher (Cortazar?) by relating to him and giving him an incentive to open up rather than trying to threaten or beat it out of him; that was smart and realistic, as well as ethically preferable. But now they're falling back on the lazy, corrupt cliche that violence works as a means of interrogation.

Then again, what I would've preferred to see was something where Bobbi talked her superior into confessing through the strength of her argument or by engaging with him emotionally enough to induce some sense of guilt or sympathy, or something like that -- but I don't think the actress is strong or charismatic enough to have pulled off a scene like that. Violence is the recourse of the weak and stupid; it takes real strength to change people's minds through conversation alone. I can buy that sort of strength from Shohreh Aghdashloo, but not from Frankie Adams.
The thing with all of this is that these characters a grunts and civilians, so they're not exactly trained interrigators, and with everything going on it makes Holden might start to lose it. Amos has been unstable from the start, so him losing control like that is perfectly in character, and Bobbi is a grunt in an extreme situation. I get the impression in both situations that it was more of just the characters getting pissed and lashing out, not necessarily well thought out attempts to get real information from the people. I could agree with the complaints if this was a cop or spy show with trained interragators regularly torture people, *cough24cough*, but that's really not the case here.
 
The thing with all of this is that these characters a grunts and civilians, so they're not exactly trained interrigators, and with everything going on it makes Holden might start to lose it.

I'm not talking about the characters' choices, I'm talking about the writers' choices. I'm sick to death of movie and TV writers choosing to depict their protagonists using torture and brutality and perpetuating the dangerous myth that such methods actually work and thus can be justified if the need is great enough. I've been sick of torture porn for a long time now and I wish TV and film would stop relying on it so much.
 
Oh, and, who else noticed that when the camera gave us a closeup of Alex through the holographic course plots, the CGI artists made them out-of-focus foreground objects. A perfectly logical, but much appreciated touch for selling the 'reality'.
 
I'm not talking about the characters' choices, I'm talking about the writers' choices. I'm sick to death of movie and TV writers choosing to depict their protagonists using torture and brutality and perpetuating the dangerous myth that such methods actually work and thus can be justified if the need is great enough. I've been sick of torture porn for a long time now and I wish TV and film would stop relying on it so much.
I don't know if what we've gotten in The Expanse qualifies as torture porn, it was just a couple people getting hit a few times. I can't even make it through trailers for that kind of stuff, so I don't know from experience, but I've gotten the impression that for something to be torture porn it has to go a lot farther than what we got here. I don't know it it would really even qualify as torture at all.
 
I don't know if what we've gotten in The Expanse qualifies as torture porn, it was just a couple people getting hit a few times. I can't even make it through trailers for that kind of stuff, so I don't know from experience, but I've gotten the impression that for something to be torture porn it has to go a lot farther than what we got here. I don't know it it would really even qualify as torture at all.

a lot further and over a longer period of time.

What we've seen is probably more a long the lines of brutality which isn't pleasant but it's a long way short of torture.
 
I don't know if what we've gotten in The Expanse qualifies as torture porn, it was just a couple people getting hit a few times. I can't even make it through trailers for that kind of stuff, so I don't know from experience, but I've gotten the impression that for something to be torture porn it has to go a lot farther than what we got here. I don't know it it would really even qualify as torture at all.

Splitting hairs. Whatever label you may want to stick on it has no effect on my dislike for it. I've never liked the "dark and gritty" aspects of this show -- which are apparently taken to a more extreme degree than they are in the books, for instance with Martens originally being a good guy who helps Bobbi get the intel to Avasarala rather than a villain she beats into submission -- and this sort of thing just adds to the negatives for me.
 
The only time I'm annoyed by this kind of stuff is when it doesn't seem appropriate for the character or situation and so far I haven't really found that the be the case. The scene with the chicken guy might have been borderline, but the way they had Naomi calling Holden out on it makes it seem like that was supposed to be the case, and it was perfectly in character for Amos.
This is clearly a case of personal taste, so I think we'll just have to agree to disagree.
 
Abhorrent? Seriously though it's a subjective term. Though I personally wouldn't call what happened this week as torture porn if you don't watch much with a lot of violence in it (which is pretty hard) it could be considered confronting. Especially the scene with Bobbie.
 
Abhorrent?
If Hostel is "abhorrent", what is A Serbian Film?!? (ok, ok i'll stop :nyah:).

More than "torture porn", it seemed to me laziness on the part of the writers. "Ok, Bobbi needs to know the truth about Ganimede. What would be an elegant, organic, smart way that can be integral to the growth of the character?
...
...
...
Screw it. Just beat the truth out of him"

ETA: if you don't know what A Serbian Film is, please don't google it. I'm serious.
 
Haha yes. I find the idea that Bobbie could convince Marten to release that info through conversation and argument as laughable though. She did win a little too quickly.
 
Haha yes. I find the idea that Bobbie could convince Marten to release that info through conversation and argument as laughable though.

Which just underlines how unimpressive Bobbi has been as a character, neither written nor cast as someone with enough intelligence or charisma to pull off something like that. (As well as how much they changed Martens, who was her ally in the book rather than her antagonist.)
 
It's a very lofty ideal that reason and argument can solve anything but the reality is some people can't be reasoned with. Take it from me I work in hospitality;). In this case no marine would have been able to convince their superior officer to release top secret info to their mortal enemy, that relationship just simply doesn't work that way. It frankly would have been less believable had this occurred.

As for the character in the books I've no idea I've not read them and aren't planning on it until the series has ended.
 
It's a very lofty ideal that reason and argument can solve anything but the reality is some people can't be reasoned with.

I'm not talking about anything of the sort. I'm talking about what's dramatically interesting. I'm not saying it would have to be about intellectual discourse, I'm talking about writing and casting a character as someone who has considerable charisma and cunning and can win a battle of wits and willpower with someone else -- whether it's through winning them over to her point of view or just finding a way to outsmart and outmaneuver them so that they have no choice but to back down. True, some people can't be reasoned with, but they can still be leveraged and outmatched by someone cleverer. I'm talking about the sort of thing Avasarala does all the time on the show. She doesn't go around punching people (although there was that one scene in her first episode where she tortured a Belter, and I'm still not happy about that); she talks people into submission, whether through reason, manipulation, political gamesmanship, or whatever. And she does it as much through the strength of her personality, her unbending confidence and will, as through the substance of her arguments. And Shohreh Aghdashloo is a strong and charismatic enough actress to make that credible. Frankie Adams is not. She comes off as weak and confused, much less impressive than I gather her book counterpart is supposed to be. And that makes her less interesting to watch as a TV character. If she'd gotten the data from Martens any other way -- whether by reasoned argument, by earning his empathy through emotional appeal, by finding some exploitable flaw in his strategy that she could use as leverage, by bluffing or tricking him, or whatever -- it would've been more interesting to watch than just hitting him a bunch of times. But it would take a stronger actress to be convincing that she could do any of those things.
 
Sadly, Bobbi's character reflects real life in some ways. The show would get awfully boring if everyone on it was portrayed as some Sherlock Holmes level master manipulator. Some people revert to brute force because that is what they have.
 
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