The Eternal Question: TNG or DS9

[Arpy]

True, but there may have been a backlash because TNG did have a tendency to lay it on thick, even exaggerate. The list of things they say they don't do or fear anymore,

You mean death? From "The Bonding"? There's a wonderful sci-fi element in that that I wish they explored more, not ran away from. I feel like this is one of those social changes that will be having its moment in the generations ahead. I wish the writers showed us how they experience these things in the Federation, not tied to make the characters "relatable" by making them us but with phasers. In the real world, I think we need to have a more mature understanding of our own mortalities and better appreciate the limited availability of most things all around us – not made up stories about it all continuing, as was, indestructible and eternal, in a magical afterlife.

My father died this year, and it put into (some) perspective the preciousness of the time we all have together. And some of the horrors of modern medicine and the mentality where we force people to stay alive in agony despite their actual quality of life being torturous, maybe because of the fear we have of death and the guilt we the living have that we get to go on and they don't. Seeing how bad it was for him, I fear that there isn't a silent holocaust going on among people at the end of their lives who can't fill out "patient feedback cards" to us after the experience about whether it was worth it, just so that doctors can play games with how long they can keep our hearts ticking.

I wish we could all appreciate how lucky any of us are to even have ever been born when the odds against that likelihood are unfathomable. (And even the least of us are the products of a billion years of evolution -– act like it.) My family is Greek in origin and whenever someone dies, even if they were total assholes to us, we refer to them as (for example) "Tasha Yar, 'the forgiven.'" They're not fortunate enough to be here anymore and we still have our lives to make the most of, so oh well for them.

...the things they do or believe is almost bizarre at least from our point of view.

Like what? I'm wondering if I'm going to have one of those re-watching Friends moments when I'm cringing at their behavior watching it through contemporary eyes, or if it'll be one of those Third Rock From the Sun moments when I'm lamenting they can't do that on television these days.

Even the way they admitted they still had flaws had a self congratulating tone to it.

Congratulating or forgiving tone? It's part of the absurdity of our nature that we're flawed and it's kind of cute when we're not being so hard on ourselves.

Seriously though, then there's the unreal behavior--as I said before about the ending of a certain episode where Yar just told Picard that one of the alien ambassadors may have been killed and prepared to be eaten by its enemy ambassadors. Picard shrugs says he should take a break and that Riker can take care of it. The background music is indicating this is a funny moment, while Troi smiles.

Wtf? It's not easy to see it as a mature show when you remember these scenes.

Both of the rival alien ambassadors had either a heavy reptilian or primate like appearance. If they looked more like humans, and the crew acted like this, the characters and the fans would have been horrified.

It was pretty absurd, yeah. I was disturbed by that but not as much as when Jadzia congratulated Sisko for winning as the villain Javert after he poisoned a planet. The Javert thing happened later in the series and long after Trek had discovered what it was going to be after TOS. ...I'm not trying to be tit for tat here, but there's a lot to compare if we're going to do it granularly.

TNG is a classic, but it had somewhat of a hollow fantasy aspect to it.

I think of it as more archetypal (like TOS) or abstract. Self contained morality plays. I'm happy DS9 built on that in its way with its format and capabilities.

Troi, who wears a cleavage revealing outfit everyday instead of a uniform.

Maybe we'll all be nudists in the future. I don't mind the cleavage from an "it's just the human body, man" perspective, but I am annoyed by her, Kira, Seven, T'Pol, Uhura being put in sexier outfits while the men weren't, from a classic feminist perspective. Hollywood has failed its own ideals. Gina Davis recently produced a documentary called This Changes Everything about female representation in Hollywood (in front of the camera and behind) and the stark reality is that at the rate of change has been near zero. Even if we waited three hundred years, the line on the graph wouldn't move. That's astonishing.

Ships that carries children and families aboard that end up getting wiped out by some disaster.

Disasters strike planets and stations too. What made the Yamato so unusual is that it was so unusual.

A service that says its not the military and yet it is the only service being sent to protect against invasion.

Yeah, so let's explore that further in an episode. Was it merely a matter of language (militaries are different now than they were three hundred years ago but we still call them that) or was Starfleet different, and how (families were on board, it seemed to also be an intelligence and police service?!?)?

 

[Farscape One]

I suppose it's hard to defend Troi's outfits up to season 6, but I liken Kira's uniform to her being the ranking Bajoran officer on the station and thus gets a different style, similar to how Starfleet captains get a variety of their uniform.

 

[Arpy]

^ Katee Sackhoff is in a new Netlifx series set a hundred years ahead or whatever it is, and they mention that they did away with uniforms on ships decades ago. ...“Casual Friday” is just the beginning.

 

[WebLurker]

Yes, I meant Kira. She wears her own unique uniform

Just another variant option the Bajoran Militia had. We've seen the same kind of thing with Starfleet (DSC has two uniforms in use, when the TNG uniforms changed, a lot of the extras still used the earlier ones, in Generations, the TNG and DS9 uniforms were both in use, etc.). As I understand it, a lot of organizations, like militaries, have multiple uniforms for different purposes.

(I think the high-heeled boots she got around the same time were actually purely practical; they made it easier to film Nana Visitor in conjunction with her taller cast members.)

 

[fireproof78]

I feel like this is one of those social changes that will be having its moment in the generations ahead. I wish the writers showed us how they experience these things in the Federation, not tied to make the characters "relatable" by making them us but with phasers.

I think if they created a balanced approach, with some sharing the acceptance point of view, while others take a more metaphysical point of view, largely because we see that death can take a number of forms across alien cultures. In a world were katras and mind melds and energy beings are commonplace I would be reticent to say that one way would be the only way that humans would deal with death. Which, is the part that I struggle with the Roddenberry box that there is only one way for humans to be in the future.

Maybe we'll all be nudists in the future. I don't mind the cleavage from an "it's just the human body, man" perspective, but I am annoyed by her, Kira, Seven, T'Pol, Uhura being put in sexier outfits while the men weren't,

I do agree on this point, especially the nudist part. I think it would be nice if nudism and body acceptance would come with this futuristic society. I also think it would allow for a lot of fashion variety that doesn't necessarily fit with the tight spandex vision of the future. I think it, with the advent of the idea of 3d printing it could be a lot of fun for decoration and body appliques.

 

[Beckerjr]

That was the positive of not being considered the number one show. Having TNG(including the movies) and then Voyager around made it so ratings weren’t as important as if they had been the only Trek series. It allowed them to “get away” with the stories and tone of the show that might otherwise have been shot down by upper management.

 

[Greg Cox]

If these were normal, real life, sensible people, this would have all been worked out at a conference table, but for the sake of drama, people have to act irrationally. There may result some heated conversation at that conference table, but that's how this kind of situation would go, and that's what the TNG version of this would look like.

Huh? In real life, people are anything but calm and sensible when it comes to mixing religion and politics. The idea that such matters could be "rationally" worked out over a conference table with merely a few heated exchanges is about as far from realistic as possible. The DS9 version strikes me as way more believable here, not to mention more compelling.

Heck, I've attended my fair share of city council meetings. Things can get pretty dramatic when it comes to parking regulations and zoning permits, let alone the science vs. religion.

Bajorans are not Vulcans, and neither are humans. We're not always rational.

P.S. And are we seriously arguing that the more conference room scenes the better? The Prophets forbid!

 

[fireproof78]

 

[Prax]

Huh? In real life, people are anything but calm and sensible when it comes to mixing religion and politics. The idea that such matters could be "rationally" worked out over a conference table with merely a few heated exchanges is about as far from realistic as possible. The DS9 version strikes me as way more believable here, not to mention more compelling.

Heck, I've attended my fair share of city council meetings. Things can get pretty dramatic when it comes to parking regulations and zoning permits, let alone the science vs. religion.

Bajorans are not Vulcans, and neither are humans. We're not always rational.

P.S. And are we seriously arguing that the more conference room scenes the better? The Prophets forbid!

While there are exceptions, real adults in the real professional world handle things differently than they do on TV. This situation jumps to activist march in an instant. There are no procedures, no scheduled talks, no plans discussed, no attempt at compromise, no authority. I've been to city council meeting, a court trial once, public debates, ...and I've even watched C-Span! Humans in real life are much more mundane . TNG(and TOS) could draw more tension and anticipation out of a calm discussion, than the other series could draw out of people in dramatic confrontation, or emotional displays.

But the point of my comment was that since the situation was a ploy, it doesn't make for any meatier a discussion than a TNG episode about the prime directive. The DS9 story was really about political rivalry. TNG can explore complex dilemmas in it's own fashion, which is often just as, if not more thought provoking than dramatic emotional displays and irrational conflict.

 

[Arpy]

P.S. And are we seriously arguing that the more conference room scenes the better?

Yes.

They’re one of the things I love best about the show, one of its trademarks stamped in the memories of fans and general audiences alike. Of which there were many.

Huh? In real life, people are anything but calm and sensible when it comes to mixing religion and politics. The idea that such matters could be "rationally" worked out over a conference table with merely a few heated exchanges is about as far from realistic as possible. The DS9 version strikes me as way more believable here, not to mention more compelling.

Heck, I've attended my fair share of city council meetings. Things can get pretty dramatic when it comes to parking regulations and zoning permits, let alone the science vs. religion.

Bajorans are not Vulcans, and neither are humans. We're not always rational.

Prax does have a point. I think the higher up you go, the calmer meetings *tend to be. They can be infuriating because often meetings are little more than show if something’s not in the polls or the budget or other numbers, but I too feel our drama has a tendency to get melodramatic.

 

[Prax]

I should mention, there are two scenes in the episode that I really like. One is when Kira, Sisko, and Keiko meet to discuss the incident. Sisko and Kira are both acting very rationally and understanding. The other is when Sisko and Jake have a talk in Sisko's office. Jake says that Keiko started teaching them about Galileo, and Sisko provides some context about judging history, and about the Bajorans. It's a really good father/son discussion, and feels authentic.

 

[fireproof78]

TNG can explore complex dilemmas in it's own fashion, which is often just as, if not more thought provoking than dramatic emotional displays and irrational conflict.

I'll not entirely disagree, but as someone who studies human emotions for a living I'm going to say that dramatic emotional displays and irrational conflict are actually highly thought-provoking for me.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Here's a comparison of the dialog involving religion and Prime Directive from TNG and DS9.

From TNG, Who Watches The Watchers;

BARRON: You must go down to Mintaka Three.
RIKER: Masquerading as a god?
PICARD: Absolutely out of the question. The Prime Directive
BARRON: Has already been violated. The damage is done. All we can do now is minimize it.
PICARD: By sanctioning their false beliefs?
BARRON: By giving them guidelines. Letting them know what the Overseer expects of them.
PICARD: Doctor Barron, I cannot, I WILL not, impose a set of commandments on these people. To do so violates the very essence of the Prime Directive.
BARRON: Like it or not, we have rekindled the Mintakans' belief in the Overseer.
RIKER: And are you saying that this belief will eventually become a religion?
BARRON: It's inevitable. And without guidance, that religion could degenerate into inquisitions, holy wars, chaos.
PICARD: Horrifying. Doctor Barron, your report describes how rational these people are. Millennia ago, they abandoned their belief in the supernatural. Now you are asking me to sabotage that achievement, to send them back into the Dark Ages of superstition and ignorance and fear? No! We will find some way to undo the damage we've caused. Number One, tell me about this group's leader.
RIKER: Nuria. Exceptionally clear-minded, sensible. The Mintakans trust her judgment. If we can convince her that you are not a god
PICARD: She might be able to persuade the others.

And DS9; In The Hands Of The Prophets;

KEIKO: You can't POSSIBLY believe teaching the facts about the wormhole amounts to blasphemy?
KIRA: I think some revisions in the school curriculum might be appropriate. You teach a lot of Bajoran children.
KEIKO: I'm not going to let a Bajoran spiritual leader dictate what CAN or CAN'T be taught in my classroom.!
KIRA: Then maybe we need two schools on the station. One for the Bajoran children, another for the Federation.
SISKO: If we start separating Bajoran and Federation interests …..
KIRA: A lot of Bajoran and Federation interests ARE separate, Commander. I've been telling you that all along.
SISKO: Nobody's saying that there can't be spiritual teaching on this station, Major, but can't it be in addition to what's taught in Mrs O'Brien's classroom?
KIRA: But if she's teaching a fundamentally different philosophy
KEIKO: I'm not teaching any philosophy. What I'm trying to teach is pure science.
KIRA: Some might say pure science, taught without a spiritual context, IS a philosophy, Mrs O'Brien.
SISKO: My philosophy is that there is room for all philosophies on this station. Now, how do you suggest we deal with this?
KIRA: I'm not sure you can.

Which conversation stands out the most? For me, DS9's dialog about the issue stands out much more and captures my interest. I'm listening to this. I'm interested. I'm curious. And this from the 1st season of DS9.


It's just my opinion, but for TNG, the dialog is about a plot. In DS9 the dialog is about an issue. And it's a pretty meaty issue. Because it's realistic and relatable.

 

[redr0bin]

If you had asked me this question before my most recent rewatches I would have probably said TNG but I finished a TNG rewatch last year and started a DS9 one soon after and I have to say the tables have turned. I'm much more engrossed in DS9 this time around. Maybe it's the fact that it doesn't start as weak as TNG does or what, but I'm just enjoying it much more.

 

[Greg Cox]

Yes.

They’re one of the things I love best about the show, one of its trademarks stamped in the memories of fans and general audiences alike. Of which there were many..

I confess: I hate writing conference room scenes (although they're sometimes unavoidable). A bunch of talking heads sitting around in a pristine, climate-controlled environment, being all calm and professional?

Where's the fun (and drama) in in that?

Given a choice, I'd much rather see characters scrambling over Vasquez Rocks, getting all banged up and dirty, while bickering about logic versus emotion . . . .

It's supposed to be the final frontier, not the endless board room.

 

[fireproof78]

I confess: I hate writing conference room scenes (although they're sometimes unavoidable). A bunch of talking heads sitting around in a pristine, climate-controlled environment, being all calm and professional?

Where's the fun (and drama) in in that?

There isn't any drama. Same with people being totally cool with death, and no conflict amongst the crew.

 

[Spaceship Jo]

There isn't any drama. Same with people being totally cool with death, and no conflict amongst the crew.

The drama in Trek is generally external (obvious exceptions), and a big part of many people's love of Trek is the generally calm professionalism. Conference room scenes are a big part of the TNG era, but they (or their equivalents) are also a big part of TOS... and DS9 and VOY. Those scenes ARE hard to write, the most important bits usually are, but the ever-encroaching "this time it's personal / I will make them pay" just makes for eyerolling "drama".

No one loves movie Picard (excepting Patrick) because he was happy to emote more and drive an ATV.

As for the writers talking through the characters, I have no problem with Sisko being hyperbolic about Saints in Paradise even though Ira meant it more seriously. Ultimately DS9 never really subverted the TNG worldview (glaxyview?), just added a bit of shading and depth to the lovely line drawing.

 

[WebLurker]

I confess: I hate writing conference room scenes (although they're sometimes unavoidable). A bunch of talking heads sitting around in a pristine, climate-controlled environment, being all calm and professional?

Where's the fun (and drama) in in that?

Given a choice, I'd much rather see characters scrambling over Vasquez Rocks, getting all banged up and dirty, while bickering about logic versus emotion . . . .

It's supposed to be the final frontier, not the endless board room.

Suppose it depends on the subject matters? "Measure of a Man" and "Drumhead" were almost nothing but conferences but really interesting stories all the same. Granted, trials do lend themselves well to drama, given the inherent story structure and I will concede that most meeting scenes in the franchise are just to dump exposition and/or set up stuff for the next act, but still...

 

[Greg Cox]

Suppose it depends on the subject matters? "Measure of a Man" and "Drumhead" were almost nothing but conferences but really interesting stories all the same. Granted, trials do lend themselves well to drama, given the inherent story structure and I will concede that most meeting scenes in the franchise are just to dump exposition and/or set up stuff for the next act, but still...

Good point. "Measure of a Man" is one of my all-time favorite TNG episode, but, yes, I think of that as a courtroom drama, not a conference room meeting.

 

[fireproof78]

The drama in Trek is generally external (obvious exceptions), and a big part of many people's love of Trek is the generally calm professionalism

I enjoy calm professionalism, and have certainly seen it employed myself. And, if Star Trek were a real world organization I could make the argument that I would prefer that. But, Star Trek also has that whole entertainment thing they got to do. Which means a balance needs to be struck between the highly personal drama, and the external conflict. I think that Star Trek would be an awesome vehicle to continue on the idea that differing points of view can still work together. I think there is drama in conflict that can still conclude in calm professionalism. But, there is absolutely nothing unprofessional about expressing emotions, frustrations or irritations in a meeting setting. And that's from personal experience.

Honestly, I think there is room for both. Certainly Kirk was not always calm and professional. And I loved him all the more for it as a character.