The Enterprise That Wasn't

[Orphalesion]

Its possible the writers didn't remember Cochrane was of that sector of the Galaxy or wasn't necessary for their tale, but gosh, what a missed opportunity to have the same plot but was in Alpha Centauri instead of our solar system in the movie FC.

According to the citations on the Alpha Memory wiki they deliberately changed Zefram's origin for the movie because the new version fit the story they wanted to tell. Interestingly, at first he was supposed to be young and covered in scars from radiation burns.
But yeah, I agree, it would have been nice to see Alpha Centauri in the movie rather than the same old Earth.

 

[uniderth]

I assume it's about the "Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri" line from TOS, which, yeah doesn't gel with First Contact. But again stuff like that just happens in a long running franchise.

Why doesn't it Gel with First Contact? There is still plenty of time for Zefram Cochrane to be "of Alpha Centauri."

 

[Dukhat]

I assume it's about the "Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centauri" line from TOS, which, yeah doesn't gel with First Contact. But again stuff like that just happens in a long running franchise.

According to the citations on the Alpha Memory wiki they deliberately changed Zefram's origin for the movie because the new version fit the story they wanted to tell. Interestingly, at first he was supposed to be young and covered in scars from radiation burns.
But yeah, I agree, it would have been nice to see Alpha Centauri in the movie rather than the same old Earth.

Here's the thing with that: The 'of Alpha Centauri' thing is irrelevant, because the episode he was featured in makes it clear that he's human. There's no other info about Alpha Centauri in the episode, so there's no problem with a later decision to have him just move there later in life.

As for his appearance: The movie producers wanted James Cromwell for the role. They didn't care what age he was. The Companion had already de-aged him when Kirk and Spock found him, but that has nothing to do with how old he was in FC.

 

[Nyotarules]

Sisko was considered 'of Bajor' but he was not born or even raised there. There is nothing to stop Cochrane from moving his planetary citizenship from Earth to Alpha Centauri in his later years. People do it all the time in real life.

 

[drt]

My next question is, was Thelev in "Journey to Babel" one of these non-green slave types?

It never occured to me before that Thelev's skin wasn't pigmented blue as part of his disguise, and that's maybe why the TAS Orion Pirates were also blue.

But out of all this the biggest question is: Where is Orion?

The bight stars of Orion have these distances:

Betelgeuse 624ly
Rigel 772ly
Bellatrix 245ly
Mintaka 916ly
Alnilam 1,342ly
Alnitak 800ly
Saiph 650ly
Meissa 1,042 ly

I think we can eliminate some of those, since we've seen them or their inhabitants elsewhere in Trek. Rigel (various), Mintaka (TNG), Betelgeuse (TMP behind the scenes; although, the Betelgeusians did happen to be blue). Alnitak (TOS) could be a possibility, if Kirk's poet was an Orion. And since there appeared to be numerous worlds in the Rigel were system, i suppose one of them could be Orion.

 

[Orphalesion]

Why doesn't it Gel with First Contact? There is still plenty of time for Zefram Cochrane to be "of Alpha Centauri."

Here's the thing with that: The 'of Alpha Centauri' thing is irrelevant, because the episode he was featured in makes it clear that he's human. There's no other info about Alpha Centauri in the episode, so there's no problem with a later decision to have him just move there later in life.

As for his appearance: The movie producers wanted James Cromwell for the role. They didn't care what age he was. The Companion had already de-aged him when Kirk and Spock found him, but that has nothing to do with how old he was in FC.

Hey, I'm not saying I'm having problems with what they decided to do in First Contact (aside from me not liking the movie very much, but I don't like any of the Trek movies and that has chiefly to do with their plots rather than with any violations of "canon"), just speculating about what the "many canon things" FC supposedly ignored might be.
For all I care they could have made Zefram in FC a woman, black, Asian, blond, a hundred years old, missing an arm, Half-Androian or whatever else they wanted to tell the story they had in mind for FC. I don't care if it matches with a TV episode from the 60s

Sisko was considered 'of Bajor' but he was not born or even raised there. There is nothing to stop Cochrane from moving his planetary citizenship from Earth to Alpha Centauri in his later years. People do it all the time in real life.

While I agree with the rest of your post, the Sisko thing is a whole different animal, since, iirc that was said by the Prophets in their cryptic way because he's Half-Prophet, after all the Prophets are also "of Bajor"

 

[1001001]

There is nothing to stop Cochrane from moving his planetary citizenship from Earth to Alpha Centauri in his later years. People do it all the time in real life.

Yeah, I switched my planetary citizenship to Alpha Centauri just last week!

 

[Nyotarules]

Yeah, I switched my planetary citizenship to Alpha Centauri just last week!

And they accepted you?

 

[1001001]

And they accepted you?

Well, there was a lot of probing first.

A LOT...

 

[Arpy]

Well, gee, I'm convinced.

If you’re interested in this subject, search the internet or this site. What you’re asking for is too long a project than I have time to pursue. My interest with this thread is to learn from and share with people who already know about the material.

 

[Takeru]

If you’re interested in this subject, search the internet or this site. What you’re asking for is too long a project than I have time to pursue. My interest with this thread is to learn from and share with people who already know about the material.

That's not how this works, you made the claim, the onus is on you to explain what you mean.

 

[Arpy]

That's not how this works, you made the claim, the onus is on you to explain what you mean.

That’s not how this works. If you don’t like my claim, disregard it. I owe you nothing. How about contributing something of your own to the thread? Find and share the research if you’re interested. Or make a collage of your own.

 

[C57D]

Canon lines from TOS "Metamorphosis"
KIRK: Zefram Cochrane of Alpha Centuri, the discoverer of the space warp?
COCHRANE: That's right, Captain.
MCCOY: But that's impossible. Zefram Cochrane died a hundred and fifty years ago.
SPOCK: The name of Zefram Cochrane is revered throughout the known galaxy. Planets were named after him. Great universities, cities.
KIRK: Isn't your story a little improbable, Mister Cochrane?
COCHRANE: No, it's true. I was eighty seven years old when I came here.

So, ZC of Alpha Centuri, discoverer of the space warp, revered all over, died 150 years before TOS at the age of 87.
So, he was revered and linked to Alpha Centuri, which must have been where his great, revered, achievement occurred - like Lawrence of Arabia. And surely discovering the thing that made warp drives and subspace radio possible must have been his greatest achievement - unless you can suggest something more amazing??

TOS is considered to be around 2264 to 2269. So ZC "died"(vanished) 150 years earlier around 2115-ish at 87.
First Contact is 2063, so 2115 less 2063 is around 52 years difference.
87 less 52 is 35. James Cromwell was around 55 during filming, so some 20 years difference.

First Contact canon and Metamorphosis canon have ZC's age disagreeing by about 20 years. They disagree on the location of his greatest and most historically revered achievement.
This is just one super obvious example where Star Trek canon is an infinitely mutable mess that makes no sense.
So,I fail to see how the "it's not worth discussing unless its canon" line can ever be an honestly held and valid point for any ST discussion. Ymmv :^)

 

[Dukhat]

That’s not how this works. If you don’t like my claim, disregard it. I owe you nothing. How about contributing something of your own to the thread? Find and share the research if you’re interested. Or make a collage of your own.

Or maybe you could just answer a simple question about a topic that you yourself brought up without trying to evade the question or derail the question by making personal insults rather than admit that you (gasp) might not know what you’re talking about?

You said that FC disregarded past Trek history. Your statement implies that you actually know why this is the case. So why is it so hard for you to explain what you meant? Saying it’s ‘too long of a subject for you to pursue’ is just evading the question. Maybe people are actually interested in why you feel this way, but you’re too busy being defensive to actually post your thoughts.

 

[Arpy]

Or maybe you could just answer a simple question about a topic that you yourself brought up without trying to evade the question or derail the question by making personal insults rather than admit that you (gasp) don’t know what you’re talking about?

You said that FC disregarded past Trek history. Your statement implies that you actually know why this is the case. So how hard is it for you to explain what you meant? Saying it’s ‘too long of a subject for you to pursue’ is just evading the question.

What you’re asking for is too long a project than I have time to pursue. My interest with this thread is to learn from and share with people who already know about the material.

Please take a step back from passion and consider what I’ve said. I don’t have the bandwidth to embark on the project you’re asking for. Thanks. LLAP

 

[Dukhat]

You could probably have said that in the nice way you just did from the beginning instead of getting all defensive and snippy about it.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

If you’re interested in this subject, search the internet or this site. What you’re asking for is too long a project than I have time to pursue. My interest with this thread is to learn from and share with people who already know about the material.

Nobody here was asking you for a long dissertation complete with footnotes. A sentence or two explaining what you meant would've been fine. People weren't asking you to explain where you were coming from because they wanted you to take us through every single step of your thought process, but because we couldn't understand what you were saying or why you were saying it. You just answering "A lot" tells us literally nothing.

We're trying to understand what you're saying here. Help us out and throw us a bone. Point us to a link that parallels your thinking. Give us something.

 

[fireproof78]

What they are saying is that Enterprise got it wrong.

 

[Dukhat]

Let’s move on.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

What they are saying is that Enterprise got it wrong.

And that's fine if someone thinks that. But please tell us why you think that. Let's have a conversation here. I can't really respond to someone's ideas if they refuse to tell me what they are.