It really isn't as big of an issue as you want it to be. A simple mistake was made. It wasn't caught until sometime later. It happens.
The Enterprise as the Federation Flagship
- Thread starter Joel_Kirk
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It would be the biggest mistake on Riker's career, seriously calling to question whether his brain is wired up right. None of us would make any comparable mistake, ever.
It calls for great levels of deliberation: Riker is reading, Riker is speaking, Riker is argumenting. A great deal hinges on his argument - the survival of his own ship, even. His co-workers are similarly interested in the events, and have the same information available. They can cross-check with the computer if they wish, too. Yet everybody is in active agreement with Riker's very specific claim.
"Mistake", my ass. Riker is pointing out physical facts, not pulling them out of fallible memory or anything.
Timo Saloniemi
It calls for great levels of deliberation: Riker is reading, Riker is speaking, Riker is argumenting. A great deal hinges on his argument - the survival of his own ship, even. His co-workers are similarly interested in the events, and have the same information available. They can cross-check with the computer if they wish, too. Yet everybody is in active agreement with Riker's very specific claim.
"Mistake", my ass. Riker is pointing out physical facts, not pulling them out of fallible memory or anything.
Timo Saloniemi
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Ah, thanks! Sounds plausible that there might be multiple museum ships even from that specific era - so Troi getting confused would not be surprising or an indication that she's completely ignorant of starship history. It wouldn't follow that any specific ship type would need to be represented, just a general era with some familiar visual cues.
The incident that proves Riker cannot read, and will base his arguments on what he has "read" nevertheless, won't damage Riker's career? I guess not, in a Starfleet where all other officers are illiterate as well.
Timo Saloniemi
The incident that proves Riker cannot read, and will base his arguments on what he has "read" nevertheless, won't damage Riker's career? I guess not, in a Starfleet where all other officers are illiterate as well.
Timo Saloniemi
Nope, it's just a simple case of not being familiar with the hull registry of one ship. Nothing more.The incident that proves Riker cannot read, and will base his arguments on what he has "read" nevertheless, won't damage Riker's career? I guess not, in a Starfleet where all other officers are illiterate as well.
I know you certainly have been more focused on arguing with me than actually thinking about the scene in question. Riker simply read a fake registry number that wasn't correct and didn't know that it incorrect at the time. Very simple.
Two things significantly wrong with that assessement:
1) If he doesn't know what ship has the registry number NCC-1305-E, how can he use that number to gain the knowledge that the ship is the Yamato? That seems to be how it works: he sees it's a Galaxy, he spots the registry (possible from that angle, even if just barely), and then states which specific Galaxy she is (even though the name would be much more difficult, if not impossible, to read from that angle).
2) If Riker accepts NCC-1305-E as "not fake", then it still follows that suffix registries exist in Starfleet, beyond the Enterprise lineage. But those obviously aren't particularly common - so how could he not know the uncommon ones? Especially as the matter would be more relevant to him than to any other XO in Starfleet (the XO of the Yamato of course notwithstanding, in the interpretation where Riker isn't an illiterate idiot)?
And it still isn't just Riker making a mistake. Everybody is doing the same thing here, trying to identify the vessel, and has the same means available. Everybody has already operated aboard a Galaxy class vessel for a full year, and there supposedly aren't too many of those. How could it be possible that none of the five would be aware of NCC-1305-E being wrong - not even Data?
Timo Saloniemi
1) If he doesn't know what ship has the registry number NCC-1305-E, how can he use that number to gain the knowledge that the ship is the Yamato? That seems to be how it works: he sees it's a Galaxy, he spots the registry (possible from that angle, even if just barely), and then states which specific Galaxy she is (even though the name would be much more difficult, if not impossible, to read from that angle).
2) If Riker accepts NCC-1305-E as "not fake", then it still follows that suffix registries exist in Starfleet, beyond the Enterprise lineage. But those obviously aren't particularly common - so how could he not know the uncommon ones? Especially as the matter would be more relevant to him than to any other XO in Starfleet (the XO of the Yamato of course notwithstanding, in the interpretation where Riker isn't an illiterate idiot)?
And it still isn't just Riker making a mistake. Everybody is doing the same thing here, trying to identify the vessel, and has the same means available. Everybody has already operated aboard a Galaxy class vessel for a full year, and there supposedly aren't too many of those. How could it be possible that none of the five would be aware of NCC-1305-E being wrong - not even Data?
Timo Saloniemi
There's nothing remotely wrong with my assessment, it's just that you prefer another one that isn't so simple (I guess). It's more than plausible that what Riker initially read was a fake registry from a fake ship that just wasn't initially caught. They haven't got rid of mistakes in the 24th-Century.
Riker sees NCC-1305-E and from this deduces it is the Yamato. Events then prove it is the Yamato, or a convincing fake thereof. So the registry must be associated with the name for real - there can be no mistake there.
If asked "What is the registry of your sister ship Yamato", Riker might possibly fumble (although this is unlikely, considering his character and his professional position as a XO in a rare sister ship to the Yamato). But it does not work the other way around.
"What is the name of the Galaxy class ship with the registry NCC-1305-E?" Umm, let's see, since I'm now being mistaken, first I have to ignore the fact that a suffix registry is rare and telling, then I have to pull a random name out of my ass, and then I have to blurt it out to my colleagues without hesitation... Oh, they all agree with me, I guess I was being professional again, just mistaken.
Timo Saloniemi
If asked "What is the registry of your sister ship Yamato", Riker might possibly fumble (although this is unlikely, considering his character and his professional position as a XO in a rare sister ship to the Yamato). But it does not work the other way around.
"What is the name of the Galaxy class ship with the registry NCC-1305-E?" Umm, let's see, since I'm now being mistaken, first I have to ignore the fact that a suffix registry is rare and telling, then I have to pull a random name out of my ass, and then I have to blurt it out to my colleagues without hesitation... Oh, they all agree with me, I guess I was being professional again, just mistaken.
Timo Saloniemi
Correction, he reads Yamato on the ship's hull after reading the registry.
I think at the time the show was aired there were going to be other ships with letter suffixes but later the production staff decided to make the Enterprise unique by being the only ship in Starfleet with a suffix.
Two conflicting approaches and I think they just hoped nobody would remember the Yamato having both. It would have been nice if they just had Frakes redub the dialog when the BluRay was released
Two conflicting approaches and I think they just hoped nobody would remember the Yamato having both. It would have been nice if they just had Frakes redub the dialog when the BluRay was released
Having a ship that new with a low registry number and a higher suffix than Enterprise suggests she was based on an originally an older design than a Constitution, maybe. But considering that there are Constitution-class ships with lower registry numbers than 1701, and even lower than 1305, it is possible that Yamato was one of the Constitution-class. Maybe lost before Kirk's five year mission, or she was one of the other survivors to be refit, but lost in a heroic manner that somehow meant she deserved to have her number retained for the next ship to bare the name "Yamato".
In either case, they've lost more Yamatos than Enterprises by 2366.
(A question would be, was the second Defiant-class USS Defiant renumbered to fit the lost Defiant or did she retain her number from when she was USS San Paulo? The effects shots of course were reused from the older ship, so one cannot tell what they actually did from the show.)
In either case, they've lost more Yamatos than Enterprises by 2366.
(A question would be, was the second Defiant-class USS Defiant renumbered to fit the lost Defiant or did she retain her number from when she was USS San Paulo? The effects shots of course were reused from the older ship, so one cannot tell what they actually did from the show.)
Constellation was NCC-1017.
The DS9 writers wanted the new Defiant to have the registry NCC-74205-A but of course that wasn't possible due to it being seen exclusively in stock footage we only ever saw the NX-74205 registry on it.
In the novels, it still keeps the NX-74205 registry. Logically speaking, it should have kept the Sao Paulo's original registry, but that's beside the point.
I thought it was explained in the novels that it was to keep a cloaking device on loan from the Romulans for a ship defined specifically as "USS Defiant NX-74205"?
No, no reason was ever given in the novels for why the ship kept the same registry. I remember back in the day, someone from Pocket Books said the only reason they kept the same registry was because they were staying consistent with what was on screen.
Besides, why would the Romulans even care what registry the ship would have?
Never underestimate lawyers, even in the 24th-Century.
FEDERATION LAWYER: We'd like the replacement for the Defiant to have a cloaking device too.
ROMULAN LAWYER: No. Our exact agreement was for a cloaking device to be used only aboard the U.S.S. Defiant, NX-74205. It does not cover any other ship in your Starfleet.
FEDERATION LAWYER: Fine. If that's the way you want to play it...
Never underestimate lawyers, even in the 24th-Century.
FEDERATION LAWYER: We'd like the replacement for the Defiant to have a cloaking device too.
ROMULAN LAWYER: No. Our exact agreement was for a cloaking device to be used only aboard the U.S.S. Defiant, NX-74205. It does not cover any other ship in your Starfleet.
FEDERATION LAWYER: Fine. If that's the way you want to play it...
Sometime later:
ROMULAN LAWYER: It was agreed that the cloaking device was to be used only for the Defiant, with the registry number NX-74205. According to our records, the current ship is the Sao Paulo...under a different name.
FEDERATION LAWYER: We are still honoring our agreement since the vessel still holds the name of the ship authorized for the cloaking device.
ROMULAN LAWYER: Do you think us fools? It's a faaaaake! Our monitors of your battles with the Dominion show similar battle tactics even though the Defiant was heard to be destroyed in a battle with the Breen. As if 'footage' was reused in one of your old Earth television shows.
FEDERATION LAWYER: It's perfectly legitimate.
ROMULAN LAWYER: Come now, be truthful.
FEDERATION LAWYER: You can't handle the truth.
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