The Enterprise as the Federation Flagship

[Maurice]

But as others have pointed out there are two definitions of flagship

1.>The ship in a fleet which carries the commanding Admiral

2.>The Best or Most important thing owned or produced by a company.

The trouble with that is that it's confusing if it means both things. If The Enterprise is the best/most important thing in Starfleet (screw you, other Galaxy class ships!), then what do they call a fleet under the command of an Admiral? The admiralship?

 

[C.E. Evans]

But as others have pointed out there are two definitions of flagship

1.>The ship in a fleet which carries the commanding Admiral

2.>The Best or Most important thing owned or produced by a company.

The trouble with that is that it's confusing if it means both things. If The Enterprise is the best/most important thing in Starfleet (screw you, other Galaxy class ships!), then what do they call a fleet under the command of an Admiral? The admiralship?

It would be dependent on the context in a particular conversation. In Admiral Whatever's fleet, his command ship would be definition 1. In a situation involving the Enterprise-D, that would be definition 2.

 

[T'Girl]

... then what do they call a fleet under the command of an Admiral? The admiralship?

From First Contact;

Riker: "Captain, the Admiral's ship has been destroyed."

It would be dependent on the context in a particular conversation. In Admiral Whatever's fleet, his command ship would be definition 1.

Has Star Trek ever referred to the command ship of a fleet formation as a "flagship?" Say during the Dominion War at some point? I recently watched The Ultimate Computer and Commodore Wesley's ship is never called "The Flagship."

 

[Timo]

Our heroes have to deal with multi-meaning words daily anyway. "Transport" refers both to the act of using the teleportation device and the general practice of hauling goods and personnel on military ships dedicated to the purpose (as well as being the designation of said ships); "screen" is used both in the context of visual interfaces and forcefield protection systems; etc. Real organizations and people have to problem dealing with like issues, either.

In which case surely another senior captain would have received Pike's anticipated promotion to junior "flag rank" in Pike's place, and would have taken the Enterprise as his/her flagship.

This might have happened, assuming there was a gap of some length between the adventure and the ceremony. And then the need for command ships diminished, and it became more useful to give the ship to Kirk as a prize for his heroics...

Has Star Trek ever referred to the command ship of a fleet formation as a "flagship?"

The Gorkon was Admiral Nechayev's flagship during the Borg hunt of "Descent". A nameless flagship was sending commands to others in the ST:FC Borg fight walla. The Romulan formation in "The Enterprise Incident" had a flagship. That's pretty much it.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

... then what do they call a fleet under the command of an Admiral? The admiralship?

From First Contact;

Riker: "Captain, the Admiral's ship has been destroyed."

It would be dependent on the context in a particular conversation. In Admiral Whatever's fleet, his command ship would be definition 1.

Has Star Trek ever referred to the command ship of a fleet formation as a "flagship?" Say during the Dominion War at some point? I recently watched The Ultimate Computer and Commodore Wesley's ship is never called "The Flagship."

Wesley was never called a flag officer in that episode either.

 

[J.T.B.]

It would be dependent on the context in a particular conversation. In Admiral Whatever's fleet, his command ship would be definition 1. In a situation involving the Enterprise-D, that would be definition 2.

But the point is, Starfleet has flag officers and ships from which they command, and "flagship" is the word for that. It's unlikely that the same word would come to be used within the same organization for a meaning that's at odds with the established use for the term.

Has Star Trek ever referred to the command ship of a fleet formation as a "flagship?" Say during the Dominion War at some point? I recently watched The Ultimate Computer and Commodore Wesley's ship is never called "The Flagship."

I don't think so, but the term is not commonly used in real life within operating forces, either. You generally refer to the ship by name and the admiral and staff by title (i.e. COMCARGRU SEVEN, COM6FLT) or "flag" generically referring to the higher level of command. But "flagship" is more commonly found in written reports, news accounts and histories.

Wesley was never called a flag officer in that episode either.

No, but we know from "The Deadly Years" that a commodore is a flag officer.

 

[The Wormhole]

^^Never mind The Deadly Years, we know from the real world that Commodore is a flag rank.

 

[Timo]

It's unlikely that the same word would come to be used within the same organization for a meaning that's at odds with the established use for the term.

Starfleet also appears to use the term "Fleet Admiral" regardless of rank, when referring to flag officers in command of specific fleets (typically with the pips of Vice Admiral or Rear Admiral). Doesn't mean the words wouldn't also refer to the five-star flag rank; the context would be easy enough to discern.

But of course Starfleet might have chosen a different designation for five-star Admirals, as no such designation is ever heard in dialogue (even though several five-star officers apparently are seen in the TOS movies, and one in ST:ID).

But "flagship" is more commonly found in written reports, news accounts and histories.

The Trek usage is entertainingly threefold. Nechayev uses the word in casual conversation in "Descent"; the flagship signs her orders with the word in battle in ST:FC; and our heroes differentiate between ships in the Romulan formation for tactical purposes by using the word.

No, but we know from "The Deadly Years" that a commodore is a flag officer.

...And apparently still breaks a physical flag aboard - or at least Mendez appeared to do so in "The Menagerie". I guess it's for the better that we never saw what that flag would have looked like unfurled.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

It would be dependent on the context in a particular conversation. In Admiral Whatever's fleet, his command ship would be definition 1. In a situation involving the Enterprise-D, that would be definition 2.

But the point is, Starfleet has flag officers and ships from which they command, and "flagship" is the word for that. It's unlikely that the same word would come to be used within the same organization for a meaning that's at odds with the established use for the term.

Not at all since it's more than plausible that some words can take on multiple meanings, especially after a couple of centuries.

Has Star Trek ever referred to the command ship of a fleet formation as a "flagship?" Say during the Dominion War at some point? I recently watched The Ultimate Computer and Commodore Wesley's ship is never called "The Flagship."

Wesley was never called a flag officer in that episode either.

No, but we know from "The Deadly Years" that a commodore is a flag officer.

Then my original point about definition 1 stands.

 

[J.T.B.]

^^Never mind The Deadly Years, we know from the real world that Commodore is a flag rank.

Sort of, the British don't consider it a flag rank, and in the US Navy it's a title for certain captain positions.

Not at all since it's more than plausible that some words can take on multiple meanings, especially after a couple of centuries.

But in this case, one meaning would refer to a Starfleet vessel, and the other meaning would also refer to a Starfleet vessel. But yes, it could be, I just think it was a poor choice to use the word that way; its shortcomings are evidenced by the way these discussions come up periodically.

 

[MacLeod]

But as others have pointed out there are two definitions of flagship

1.>The ship in a fleet which carries the commanding Admiral

2.>The Best or Most important thing owned or produced by a company.

The trouble with that is that it's confusing if it means both things. If The Enterprise is the best/most important thing in Starfleet (screw you, other Galaxy class ships!), then what do they call a fleet under the command of an Admiral? The admiralship?

It's not really confusing, one is the Admiral's flagship the other the Starfleet Flagship. In a situation where both are, the Admiral would still have overall command either from his Flagship or the Starfleet Flagship. But as seen from FC when the Admiral's ship was destroyed the other Captain's quickly deferred to Picard. Now that could be for a number of reasons or a combination i.e

1.>Picard's and the Enterprise crews experiance with the Borg

2.>The Ent-E was the Starfleet Flagship

3.>Picard was regonised as the most Senior Captain

4.>Other

 

[C.E. Evans]

Not at all since it's more than plausible that some words can take on multiple meanings, especially after a couple of centuries.

But in this case, one meaning would refer to a Starfleet vessel, and the other meaning would also refer to a Starfleet vessel.

Which really isn't a problem since it would be just a simple matter of context.

But yes, it could be, I just think it was a poor choice to use the word that way; its shortcomings are evidenced by the way these discussions come up periodically.

There are real-world examples of how some words--even naval ones like "ensign"--can take on additional meanings over time, though.

 

[MacLeod]

Not at all since it's more than plausible that some words can take on multiple meanings, especially after a couple of centuries.

But in this case, one meaning would refer to a Starfleet vessel, and the other meaning would also refer to a Starfleet vessel.

Which really isn't a problem since it would be just a simple matter of context.

But yes, it could be, I just think it was a poor choice to use the word that way; its shortcomings are evidenced by the way these discussions come up periodically.

There are real-world examples of how some words--even naval ones like "ensign"--can take on additional meanings over time, though.

True Ensign can also mean a Flag i.e The Red Ensign, or also a rank.

 

[J.T.B.]

True Ensign can also mean a Flag i.e The Red Ensign, or also a rank.

An ensign was originally a flag, and then became the rank of the junior army officer in charge of the flag. The French transferred the title over to their navy, too, and then the US adopted it when they needed a navy rank to line up with 2nd lieutenant. But it's not really comparable, because it's not being used for two different kinds of flags, or two different kinds of ranks.

 

[Mojochi]

Has Star Trek ever referred to the command ship of a fleet formation as a "flagship?" Say during the Dominion War at some point? I recently watched The Ultimate Computer and Commodore Wesley's ship is never called "The Flagship."

The Gorkon was Admiral Nechayev's flagship during the Borg hunt of "Descent". A nameless flagship was sending commands to others in the ST:FC Borg fight walla. The Romulan formation in "The Enterprise Incident" had a flagship. That's pretty much it.

During Redemption pt.2, While captaining the Sutherland, Data refers to the Enterprise as the flagship, which is why I posted the example earlier. To my knowledge, that is the one time I recall the Enterprise being referred to as a legitimate flagship. That's not to say it might not also stand at other times as well. It certainly could & therefore is not out of the realm of possibility to claim it is such

 

[Ithekro]

Commodore, in World War II, was a flag rank in the United States Navy. It came back in 1982 as a flag rank, but has since been replaced with Rear Admiral (Lower half) or "One Star" Rear Admiral.

It was replaced specifically because it had too many meaning different naval and nautical circles. In the 1960s and today, it was a title for a senior captians that control major air wings, naval squadrons, or other major command groups. However, Star Trek writers, from what I can gather, were still using World War II usage as a rank, otherwise all the commodores would have captain's stripes.

 

[T'Girl]

It's not really confusing, one is the Admiral's flagship the other the Starfleet Flagship.

Except it isn't the Starfleet flagship, instead it's the flagship of the Federation. Not the same thing.

 

[Maurice]

Or it's just stupid.

 

[Timo]

Things military tend to be...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[C.E. Evans]

True Ensign can also mean a Flag i.e The Red Ensign, or also a rank.

An ensign was originally a flag, and then became the rank of the junior army officer in charge of the flag. The French transferred the title over to their navy, too, and then the US adopted it when they needed a navy rank to line up with 2nd lieutenant. But it's not really comparable, because it's not being used for two different kinds of flags, or two different kinds of ranks.

It's completely comparable in a word being used for more than one thing.