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The Emperor's New Cloak..question?

Dayton3

Admiral
I hate Ferengi episodes.

But at least this one gave me good reason.

In "The Emperor's New Cloak" is is clearly stated that the Mirror Universe "doesn't have them here" (cloaking devices).

Yet, in the second DS9 Mirror Universe episode (two seasons earlier) when mirror-O'Brien and our Sisko allow themselves to get captured, they are shown in a ship and two Cardassian ships and a Klingon attack cruiser are clearly shown DECLOAKING and blocking their path.

Why did the DS9 producers ignore their own internal continuity regarding this?

This is one of the things that made me hate most modern Trek.
 
^ Oh well, I'd say DS9 was rather exemplary when it comes to adhering to Trek continuity. There are maybe two or three inconsistencies in the whole series (Sisko's father being dead in The Alternate and alive in Homefront comes to mind as another example). I think Voyager was the real evildoer. I feel like there were countless inconsistencies throughout the whole series.
 
Why did the DS9 producers ignore their own internal continuity regarding this?

Because it served the story, of course.

But it doesn't really create an inconsistency, unless we insist that there exists just ONE mirror universe. And that doesn't sound likely. Surely there must be an infinite number of them, TNG "Parallels" style.

It's just that the mechanism first introduced in "Mirror, Mirror" specifically ties "our" universe to such a parallel universe that features the maximum number of evil counterparts to the hero characters involved in the interaction. That is, if Kira activates the interuniverse machinery, she will run into a universe with an evil Kira, not into one with an evil Janeway.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Altough we can hate it as inconsistency it least established some factual matters being different in two universes instead just that series protagonists (or most of them) being on opposite side of moral spectrum.
 
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There are maybe two or three inconsistencies in the whole series (Sisko's father being dead in The Alternate and alive in Homefront comes to mind as another example). I think Voyager was the real evildoer. I feel like there were countless inconsistencies throughout the whole series.

DS9 definitely had a whole whackload more of inconsistencies than just 2 or 3:

Ie:

- 2 fundamentally contrary versions of how Curzon died.

- Martok changeling being "made up at the last minute" creates tons of inconsistencies for the episodes where he was retroactively supposed to be a changeling, but wasn't really because that idea wasn't even in the writers' mind at the time of those earlier episodes. Likewise it makes no sense how Martok changeling could have fit in with the Klingon culture for so long yet Odo picks up that he's a changeling in less than an hour due to him not having a basic understanding of Klingon culture. This is even inconsistent with the statement in the very same episode that says if there is an hint of the Feds being disguised as Klingons not actually being Klingons, they would be exposed instantly.

- Ditto most of the above when it comes to the Bashir changeling.

- Federation characters have money in DS9 (saying they are 'credits' and not money isn't an excuse; they are still money even if they are called credits). The Sisko even demands money from Quark to fix the cargo bay that he got shot up.

- Founders have no reason whatsoever to look like Odo, especially when Odo isn't anywhere near them (the excuse "they are mimicing Odo's appearance" doesn't work for this reason.)

- Klingons that are supposed to be 'honorable' stab the Albino in the back (nothing could be more dishonorable than to stab a man in the back).

- Worf had no right to challenge and kill Gowron according to what Jadzia said in an earlier episode: Klingons are only allowed to challenge their direct superior, that's it. Worf would have had to challenge and kill Martok first, his direct superior, before being allowed to challenge and kill Gowron.

- The wormhole aliens don't know anything about humans when they meet Sisko in episode 1, yet by Seasons 6 and 7 they are directly responsible for giving birth to him.
 
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- 2 fundamentally contrary versions of how Curzon died.
okay

This is even inconsistent with the statement in the very same episode that says if there is an hint of the Feds being disguised as Klingons not actually being Klingons, they would be exposed instantly.
I think that was more a show of Odo's skills of being an investigator. The everyday Klingon grunt would not check Martok's orders for honorable content. In that situation "Martok" was forced to take those "dishonorable" actions to continue his plans.


- Federation characters have money in DS9 (saying they are 'credits' and not money isn't an excuse; they are still money even if they are called credits). The Sisko even demands money from Quark to fix the cargo bay that he got shot up.
You are forgetting this is "still a Bajoran station". there are 1000 explanations for this.

- Founders have no reason whatsoever to look like Odo, especially when Odo isn't anywhere near them (the excuse "they are mimicing Odo's appearance" doesn't work for this reason.)
Okay. while I would not call this an inconsistency, it would at least call this lame. The founders should have been changing form to achieve the best interface with the humanoids theyre dealing with. They should at least not looked like Dr. Mora all of them.

- Klingons that are supposed to be 'honorable' stab the Albino in the back (nothing could be more dishonorable than to stab a man in the back).
You apply human standards. The Klingons have a lot of loopholes when it comes to honorable behavior. Plus the Albino was about to kill Dax.

- Worf had no right to challenge and kill Gowron according to what Jadzia said in an earlier episode: Klingons are only allowed to challenge their direct superior, that's it. Worf would have had to challenge and kill Martok first, his direct superior, before being allowed to challenge and kill Gowron.
We know that applies to ship crews. Maybe everyone at that staff table was equal when it comes to "challenging rules". Also keep in mind Gowron accepted that challenge. It was more like in Redemption when that fat Klingon random guy enters the room and challenges Gowron.
Maybe he could aswell just forfeit the challenge and have him killed by his guards (like in "Apocalypse Rising", where Gowron keeps his guards from killing Worf but instead accepts teh challenge.

- The wormhole aliens don't know anything about humans when they meet Sisko in episode 1, yet by Seasons 6 and 7 they are directly responsible for giving birth to him.
You think in such linear terms ;). The first "encounter" was an event independent from our time and space. It was the event through which the Prophets learned about humanoids. How could they have influenced Bajor and create interfaces for the Bajorans (Orbs) for ten millenia if they "had not" known of humanoids. how could they wonder about our concept of "time" when they had coped with Akorem "centuries earlier"?
 
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This is even inconsistent with the statement in the very same episode that says if there is an hint of the Feds being disguised as Klingons not actually being Klingons, they would be exposed instantly.
I think that was more a show of Odo's skills of being an investigator. The everyday Klingon grunt would not check Martok's orders for honorable content. In that situation "Martok" was forced to take those "dishonorable" actions to continue his plans.

Remember too that in several episodes (such as those with Kor and Ezri's comments in Season Seven) it is mentioned how the Klingon Empire is moving away from the honorable aspects of the past and becoming something else. The Martok Changeling may have been involved in this and may explain why he wasn't given more scrutiny - especially in a race where subordinates get promoted by killing dishonorable superiors.
 
This is even inconsistent with the statement in the very same episode that says if there is an hint of the Feds being disguised as Klingons not actually being Klingons, they would be exposed instantly.
I think that was more a show of Odo's skills of being an investigator. The everyday Klingon grunt would not check Martok's orders for honorable content. In that situation "Martok" was forced to take those "dishonorable" actions to continue his plans.

Remember too that in several episodes (such as those with Kor and Ezri's comments in Season Seven) it is mentioned how the Klingon Empire is moving away from the honorable aspects of the past and becoming something else. The Martok Changeling may have been involved in this and may explain why he wasn't given more scrutiny - especially in a race where subordinates get promoted by killing dishonorable superiors.

The Klingon code of honour definately appears inconsistant throughout all the series.

I find it ironic that it appears that Worf, somone raised by humans outside the culture, appears to be the one TNG-era Klingon, with the exception of Martok, who appears to follow the "true" Klingon Honour Code. Gowron certainly seems willing to bend these rules as he sees fit, even using Martok's Honour as a tool to try and rid himself of him!

As to the Martok Changeling, I think the whole plan was to allow Sisko and Odo to kill Gowron, but things came unstuck as instead of just shooting him, they planned to expose him first - something that would have instead exposed Martok, so the plan was changed.
 
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When you look at the Klingon Empire in the ST:TNG and later era you need to look at the episodes "Reunion" and "Redemption I" very closely.

Only Duras and Gowron were the ones seeking to lead the Klingon Empire.

Duras and his family had a long history of treason and treachery yet they apparently had the support of most of the Klingon High Council.

Gowron was an outsider and a politician (not a warrior).

So one can see that the modern Klingon Empire obviously had some serious leadership problems at the top
 
- Federation characters have money in DS9 (saying they are 'credits' and not money isn't an excuse; they are still money even if they are called credits). The Sisko even demands money from Quark to fix the cargo bay that he got shot up.

Well how else are the Bajoran technicians going to get paid? Though in terms of DS9 that's not an inconsistency.

- Founders have no reason whatsoever to look like Odo, especially when Odo isn't anywhere near them (the excuse "they are mimicing Odo's appearance" doesn't work for this reason.)

How else are they going to communicate with solids? Though the idea of a cloud giving Dukat orders is amusing.

- Klingons that are supposed to be 'honorable' stab the Albino in the back (nothing could be more dishonorable than to stab a man in the back).

I don't buy it. It's a battle. Winning was all that matters.

- Worf had no right to challenge and kill Gowron according to what Jadzia said in an earlier episode: Klingons are only allowed to challenge their direct superior, that's it. Worf would have had to challenge and kill Martok first, his direct superior, before being allowed to challenge and kill Gowron.

As pointed out Gowron accepted the challenge and there's no reason why there can't be different rules for ships.

- The wormhole aliens don't know anything about humans when they meet Sisko in episode 1, yet by Seasons 6 and 7 they are directly responsible for giving birth to him.

It doesn't seem much of a contradiction given the Prophets whole "we exist outside linear time".
 
One of the coolest scenes regarding klingon rules was when Garak and Worf arrive at the Dominion POW camp and meet the real Martok.

GARAK
Aren't you Klingons supposed to kill yourselves when you're taken prisoner?
WORF
Not when there are still enemies to fight.
MARTOK
Or hope of escape.


This basically boils down to "do what you want".
 
Good points already, but I'll add couple of further musings:

- 2 fundamentally contrary versions of how Curzon died.

I don't really get this one. "Emissary" shows him on a surgery table as an old man, with Jadzia next to him. "Let He Who Is Without Sense Watch This" tells us why this old man is on that surgery table, dying with a smile on his face. IMHO, the two stories support each other in full.

- Martok changeling being "made up at the last minute" creates tons of inconsistencies for the episodes where he was retroactively supposed to be a changeling, but wasn't really because that idea wasn't even in the writers' mind at the time of those earlier episodes.
I don't see any damning cases. And if there were any, well, that's just the Founder being very good at maintaining his cover. ;)

Likewise it makes no sense how Martok changeling could have fit in with the Klingon culture for so long yet Odo picks up that he's a changeling in less than an hour due to him not having a basic understanding of Klingon culture.
To be sure, "Martok" had no reason to be careful about it with Sisko and the others, as he knew the prisoners would all be torn apart by the enraged crowd in a matter of minutes - and I can't fathom how he could have been careful about it,as he had to lure Sisko's team into murdering Gowron. He'd only have aroused more suspicion if he tried to invent some half-assed reason as to why he couldn't do it personally.

- Ditto most of the above when it comes to the Bashir changeling.
I actually think the plot twist turns some earlier episodes into more interesting and consistent ones. "Bashir" operates on an unconscious Sisko, claiming that it is a matter of life and death - and as the result, Sisko stumbles out of surgery, delirious and insisting that Bajor not ally militarily with the Federation. "Bashir" oversees Odo's interaction with a Founder baby, and judges Odo redeemed - and as the result, the baby gives Odo back his Changeling powers.

- Federation characters have money in DS9 (saying they are 'credits' and not money isn't an excuse; they are still money even if they are called credits). The Sisko even demands money from Quark to fix the cargo bay that he got shot up.
Now that's wholly consistent with all other Star Trek. Starfleet heroes can buy and sell things; Kirk often did. Starfleet can buy and sell. But whether a Federation citizen (let alone a junior one) has or needs any money is a wholly separate issue.

- Founders have no reason whatsoever to look like Odo, especially when Odo isn't anywhere near them (the excuse "they are mimicing Odo's appearance" doesn't work for this reason.)
Why wouldn't it? We've never seen a Founder when it isn't near Odo.

Except, of course, the character known as the Female Founder. But she always looked like that for Odo's benefit when Cardassians were around - it's psychologically consistent that she wouldn't put on a different face just to interact with Gul Dukat or Gul Damar whom she deeply despised. And once her disease set in, she was stuck with that face forever.

- Klingons that are supposed to be 'honorable' stab the Albino in the back (nothing could be more dishonorable than to stab a man in the back).
How can you tell? It's alien honor you speak about - yet it's considered extremely honorable for a father to strangle her daughter in certain circumstances, right here down on Earth.

And history is full of far stranger definitions of honor. Rather naturally so, because honor is but an arbitrary set of rules intended to stop people of means from using those means to the fullest, through mutual agreement of convenience. The content of that agreement would depend on the means, and thus today's definitions of honor, while geographically extremely varied, are even more at variance with those of yesterday. Sneaky assassination has often been a highly honored skill.

In the Klingon case, it is quite consistent that a sneaky kill would be held in esteem. After all, these are the folks who think that invisibility screens are the ultimate in honorable starship combat.

- Worf had no right to challenge and kill Gowron according to what Jadzia said in an earlier episode: Klingons are only allowed to challenge their direct superior, that's it. Worf would have had to challenge and kill Martok first, his direct superior, before being allowed to challenge and kill Gowron.
And Picard had no right to challenge Admiral Dougherty. He just said "Screw the rules!" and went and did the right thing anyway. That's how it looks like, both times that Worf attempts to slay Gowron: he's essentially performing suicide, literally and figuratively, by doing the right thing against all rules and customs.

- The wormhole aliens don't know anything about humans when they meet Sisko in episode 1, yet by Seasons 6 and 7 they are directly responsible for giving birth to him.
Which is only fitting when one considers what sort of aliens they are.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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In the Klingon case, it is quite consistent that a sneaky kill would be held in esteem. After all, these are the folks who think that invisibility screens are the ultimate in honorable starship combat.

Yeah. Dax even proposes they use the "Nyengoren strategy" against the Albino- meaning, according to Kang, "sneaking into his bedroom and murdering him".
 
series inconsistencies

You're bound to run into inconsistencies with any series, especially the longer it runs. Take M*A*S*H for example. "Abbysinia, Henry"--the episode where Henry Blake was killed off, was supposed to take place in 1952. Yet much later there was an episode devoted to the entire year of 1950 or 1951 that had Charles Winchester in it!
 
Re: series inconsistencies

You're bound to run into inconsistencies with any series, especially the longer it runs. Take M*A*S*H for example. "Abbysinia, Henry"--the episode where Henry Blake was killed off, was supposed to take place in 1952. Yet much later there was an episode devoted to the entire year of 1950 or 1951 that had Charles Winchester in it!

You can excuse half hour comedies of things like this when they don't have a clue as to how long the series might run.

But not Deep Space Nine.

DS9 came in with basically an assurance of a seven year run.

Same with Voyager.
 
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