I disagree.
I see the writers wanting us the viewer to interprete what we believed the EMH & Data to be. That's why in both "Measure of Man" & "Author, Author" there is no conclusion to what either Data or the EMH are. The choice was left up to us.
The EMH
- Thread starter Ensign Johnson
- Start date
I see the writers wanting us the viewer to interprete what we believed the EMH & Data to be. That's why in both "Measure of Man" & "Author, Author" there is no conclusion to what either Data or the EMH are. The choice was left up to us.
Regardless of this above - humans are greater than the sum of their parts ie body, mind and spirit.....there is no reason why the EMH may not also be greater than the sum of his parts (be it photons, forcefields or code is irrelevant)
As I mentioned above, it could also be argued that many human responses are coded or preprogrammed (particularly autonomic responses). So humans and the EMH may not be all that different.
I'd say that the whole point of this argument is whether programming code can gain sentience.
So, no, the parts the whole is made up of do, in fact, make a big difference when stating arguments as to why the EMH may or may not be sentient.
And what about Equinox's EMH?
Was that %$^# "alive"?
Some of you are supposing that it is fresh out of the box factory settings Holograms that are already "alive" goodness forbid a hologram which has been running longer than Voyagers EMH in roughly similar circumstances.
If Equinox's EMH was "alive" too, then the Doctor is a murderer for deleting him, however the doctor may have so freely murdered his "brother" because he does not believe (KNOWS!) that EMH's are not alive... or he holds holograms to a higher standard than fleshies and did not beleive that the other EMH could redeem himself (sanctimonious prick!)?
(oh brother.)
Virtuoso you say?
Now that is interesting. One of my least favourite episodes but very interesting.
Was that %$^# "alive"?
Some of you are supposing that it is fresh out of the box factory settings Holograms that are already "alive" goodness forbid a hologram which has been running longer than Voyagers EMH in roughly similar circumstances.
If Equinox's EMH was "alive" too, then the Doctor is a murderer for deleting him, however the doctor may have so freely murdered his "brother" because he does not believe (KNOWS!) that EMH's are not alive... or he holds holograms to a higher standard than fleshies and did not beleive that the other EMH could redeem himself (sanctimonious prick!)?
(oh brother.)
Virtuoso you say?
Now that is interesting. One of my least favourite episodes but very interesting.
So, what makes the Doctor any different than Flotter?
Flotter is not alive or alive for very long since the rest of the crew hunt him for sport with old fashioned shot guns when he isn't teaching the kids how to spell or count to 12.
If you could hunt a Teletubby, wouldn't you?
What about the Doctor's family? Did he make then less real than B'Elanna did who randomized the program to allow for "surprise" because they weren't giving him a "real family" experience? The Doctor was already treating them as "real" when they were just a mouth piece for his vanity.
Life line was written by Picardo. Zimmerman's assistant was generations earlier than the Doctor but it "seemed" as though she had lept to a state of conciousness just by being left on for, I think, 9 years because she as in love with Zimmerman. Although, if the Doctors belief's in holofleshiecoitus were transposed from Zimmerman's personal manifesto on holodecency, then he probably boned her a lot. Which makes her a victim rationalizing abuse into the semblance of feelings of affection because she's not concious enough to differentiate between the two, and might have been programmed to think just like that.
Can holograms say no to sex, or no to anything really? Is it possible to "rape" (does a hologram have the capacity to decide upon consent?) a hologram, and isn't just altering their programming until they think black is white and up is down that they will now say yes to what they earlier said no to also just another expression of rape (the Doctor vivisecting seven of Nine for instance after his moral imperatives were deleted. OO! That's a cycle of violence.)?
If you could hunt a Teletubby, wouldn't you?
What about the Doctor's family? Did he make then less real than B'Elanna did who randomized the program to allow for "surprise" because they weren't giving him a "real family" experience? The Doctor was already treating them as "real" when they were just a mouth piece for his vanity.
Life line was written by Picardo. Zimmerman's assistant was generations earlier than the Doctor but it "seemed" as though she had lept to a state of conciousness just by being left on for, I think, 9 years because she as in love with Zimmerman. Although, if the Doctors belief's in holofleshiecoitus were transposed from Zimmerman's personal manifesto on holodecency, then he probably boned her a lot. Which makes her a victim rationalizing abuse into the semblance of feelings of affection because she's not concious enough to differentiate between the two, and might have been programmed to think just like that.
Can holograms say no to sex, or no to anything really? Is it possible to "rape" (does a hologram have the capacity to decide upon consent?) a hologram, and isn't just altering their programming until they think black is white and up is down that they will now say yes to what they earlier said no to also just another expression of rape (the Doctor vivisecting seven of Nine for instance after his moral imperatives were deleted. OO! That's a cycle of violence.)?
I'm pretty much in the same boat. I do think one key difference between a basic holographic program like the EMHs and a being like Data is that Soong always intended Data to have the capacity for full sentience, which he gradually achieved, while the EMHs had that capacity built in but was not intended to utilize it in the same manner. It was intended only to be an aide to organic crew and to function in a limited capacity. I think Voyager's EMH is a unique case because of the circumstances in which the ship was left and which helped him achieve a higher level of being, so to speak, but I'm not sure the same would necessarily be true for any hologram. I suppose what I'm saying is, it's a situational issue sometimes. And there are plenty of precedents for "organic" not being a necessity to either life or sentience.
The program is only the code - it still relies on hardware etc which is made of matter, so it's not irrelevent at all. Humans are made of matter, or if you prefer, their conscience and responses (equivalent to code - who knows) is centered in matter yet are sentient....just as code is seated in matter. As such there is the possibility of sentience.
Sideline logic, IMHO
Unlike a program, I exist unto myself. I was not created knowing exactly what I was to do with myself. I was not created for a specific purpose and designed with that specific purpose in mind. My "self" cannot be altered in a simple fashion. I am self contained.
Holograms (programs) are not self contained. They are created and designed for a specific purpose. They can quickly and easily be altered because that is their purpose. They are there to be, essentially, apps that can be custom made to fit whatever your need is.
You are correct when you say "the program is only code". The program is the hologram, and it is only sophisticated code.
Unlike a program, I exist unto myself. I was not created knowing exactly what I was to do with myself. I was not created for a specific purpose and designed with that specific purpose in mind. My "self" cannot be altered in a simple fashion. I am self contained.
Holograms (programs) are not self contained. They are created and designed for a specific purpose. They can quickly and easily be altered because that is their purpose. They are there to be, essentially, apps that can be custom made to fit whatever your need is.
You are correct when you say "the program is only code". The program is the hologram, and it is only sophisticated code.
If the code was stored and processed within the photons inside the hologram I would agree with you, but the holographic bodies are completely separate, extraneous, removed and distant to the "personalities" of the AI.
It's like you talk into a speaker and your voice comes out of a walkie talkie a few feet away, and by the logic held by some here, you would then (also?) be a Walkietalkie Lifeform since the waklie talkie is obviously a "body" you are using.
In the beginning the Doctor was huge. He was almost the entirety of sickbay. Inside of the walls. Whatever. A mass of hardware (servers) to store a huge amount of data, but if you'd shoot his holographic projection/avatar, even if that hologram fizzils out, he's still just living in the sickbay walls capable of generating a new hologram to express his opinions about being shot. It's like hacking at a movie screen with a sword to stop a movie when you should be setting fire to the projector or the film.
If they invented a better medium than photons to project his personality onto, he'd probably use it, and then he would no longer be able to call himself a holographic lifeform while all the time being exactly the same "person".
It's like you talk into a speaker and your voice comes out of a walkie talkie a few feet away, and by the logic held by some here, you would then (also?) be a Walkietalkie Lifeform since the waklie talkie is obviously a "body" you are using.
In the beginning the Doctor was huge. He was almost the entirety of sickbay. Inside of the walls. Whatever. A mass of hardware (servers) to store a huge amount of data, but if you'd shoot his holographic projection/avatar, even if that hologram fizzils out, he's still just living in the sickbay walls capable of generating a new hologram to express his opinions about being shot. It's like hacking at a movie screen with a sword to stop a movie when you should be setting fire to the projector or the film.
If they invented a better medium than photons to project his personality onto, he'd probably use it, and then he would no longer be able to call himself a holographic lifeform while all the time being exactly the same "person".
By that logic if I created a holographic pig that could talk and think, he'd be considered sentient and be required rights as well. Deleting a hologram would be considered murder. If the EMH is real, then so is Jar Jar Binks.
That's hippies for you. Anthropomorphizing everything!
The "matter" that is the "hologram" is the mobile emitter or the holobuffer in whatever hologrid is processing the program. Following the Person metaphor, the code is the soul, the buffer is the meat and the holomatter is voice which is insubstantial and thrown form anything of substance but appearing to possess presence.
The "matter" that is the "hologram" is the mobile emitter or the holobuffer in whatever hologrid is processing the program. Following the Person metaphor, the code is the soul, the buffer is the meat and the holomatter is voice which is insubstantial and thrown form anything of substance but appearing to possess presence.
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Maybe you were created with a specific purpose in mind - some philosophers (and theologists) have argued that that humans were created by "a being" with a specific purpose in mind ie an experiment to be observed. In this sense, humans are not self-contained and maybe being manipulated by this "being". (btw - I'm agnostic bordering on aethiest so do not subscribe to religious doctrines).
In addition a humans sense of "self" is easily altered - by other humans, and in less than 24 hours. It's done all the time in war, hostage situations and by torture techniques (and I don't mean the gruesome form of torture). Behavioural therapy is an interesting field when it comes to alteration and breaking down of the sense of self.
The human "program" (genetic code containing all those automated responses that often continue beyond loss of consciouness, mental awareness and sense of self) is embedded in matter. Just as the EMH's program (the code) is embedded in matter - the computers, projectors etc) ie it cannot exist without matter. When you boil it all down, there may not really be that much difference between the two and as such there is potential for sentience.
Meat can be programmed. No issue.
What about the Doctors girlfriend?
She was "reduced" to code, stored on the holobuffer, and then reinserted back into her body.
When she was code, was she "alive" despite that her "program" was a tiny fraction the size of the Doctor who could help but skite about how well his personality outmassed her own. She could have been tweaked. She could have be adjusted to be kind to the Voyager crew, which explains a lot come Resolutions. This is exactly the process which Data argued would kill him, but then Barclay seemed no worse for wear after the Nth degree.
What about the Doctors girlfriend?
She was "reduced" to code, stored on the holobuffer, and then reinserted back into her body.
When she was code, was she "alive" despite that her "program" was a tiny fraction the size of the Doctor who could help but skite about how well his personality outmassed her own. She could have been tweaked. She could have be adjusted to be kind to the Voyager crew, which explains a lot come Resolutions. This is exactly the process which Data argued would kill him, but then Barclay seemed no worse for wear after the Nth degree.
It seems to me he's as real as Data. In TNG we saw a computer evolve in Data - we saw the mainframe of the computer itself evolve - the Minars [sp?] upgraded the holodeck program that even fooled Riker so I'd say that Voyager's EMH would be enhanced beyond that and that's it canon on the show that Voyager itself had the most advanced computer system in Star Fleet.
In this thread, you'll see that I believe Data in the same light as I do the EMH.
Theoretically the Dr.'s processing speed should be faster than Data's. Data was built many years earlier than the Voyager computer system thus the Dr. should be more advanced.
One of the things that always bugged me though is as seen on the show both the Dr. and Data took longer to retrieve simple queries that today we can type into google and get instantaneous results for.
I know in both cases it was for dramatic license reasons that was done but still bugged me.
Um. It's because they have to search through a database millions if not billions of times larger than the internet. I recall Phill of the Future once scoffing about the evolution of search engines topping and trumping each other long after the internet had been quelled in the first round robbin draw.
And despite trundling around and through Starfleet for almost 1/2 a century, data's technology is "exotic" so it's not a certainty that other scientists have caught up with Soongs SECRET advances.
And despite trundling around and through Starfleet for almost 1/2 a century, data's technology is "exotic" so it's not a certainty that other scientists have caught up with Soongs SECRET advances.
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I thought Data's tech was still in ways beyond Starfleets understanding? Isn't that part of why they wanted to dismantle him in "Measure of Man", too completely figure out how he works?
It's a question of miniaturization.
Data's a better computer than anything else the Federation has the size of a Soccer ball, but lets not forget that they have computers the size of planets stockpiling and processing information.
Data's a better computer than anything else the Federation has the size of a Soccer ball, but lets not forget that they have computers the size of planets stockpiling and processing information.
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