• Welcome! The TrekBBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans.
    If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

The EMH: Where does draw the line?

TEACAKE'S PLEATHER DOME

Teacake's Pleather Dome
Premium Member
So the EMH is a snob, very full of his sentient wonderfulness and he's ready to view other holograms who might want to sleep with him or do battle with him as also (somewhat) equals but it's clear that he does not give a crap for unevolved light bulbs on the holodeck.

He turns them off. He deletes them. He uses them for his own pleasures.

What's it take for the EMH to view you, Brother Wattage, as a real boy? Does he think that all holograms could exceed their programming and become sentient?
 
The Doctor is not really a hologram.

He's code on a hard drive feeding direction to a holoemitter.

Anyone fleshie or AI can project themselves holographically.

The EMH is however so selfloathing that he lies about what he is even to himself.
 
Now THAT is one hell of a good question. If he is capable of the kinds of learning and processing of experience Data was, or even the T-101, I would think that he could imagine others of his kind becoming sentient. More knowledgable Voyagerians need to weigh in, I think.
 
Others?

I'm not trying to be a dick, but you'll have to convince me that the Doctor is sentient, unless you mean others apart from Moriarty.
 
I suspect the only reason he isn't campaigning for every luau girl and Fairhaven resident to be left ALONE and not tinkered with is because..

a. He wants to tinker with them

b. He wants to be THE expert wonder of hologram sentience and for all his whining about not having peers he actually does not want any peers.

c. He knows that if he started a social justice campaign for holodeck characters Janeway would view him as a problem very quickly.
 
Others?

I'm not trying to be a dick, but you'll have to convince me that the Doctor is sentient, unless you mean others apart from Moriarty.


Was assuming 'cake meant like Moriarty and Da Vinci and the like, from the Holodecks.
 
I said cocked up, not wagged the dog.

You know Tears for Algernon?

Or how about TNG Nth Degree?

Increasing intelligence/processing power to he point that sentience is possible... can't go backwards from there and still feel the same.

Although from looking at the Packleds, sentience is possible without a high quotient of intelligence.

But if you can just slap an extra hard drive on, update the cpu and triple the RAM, is it the same person? And if it wasn't a person before you starting turning it into a person, then it's a birth and not a coming of age story.

Look for a disgusting adult (not porn) cartoon called Rick and Morty.

In one of the Episodes, the dad in the family wanted a dog that would go to the toilet in the toilet by itself, 24 hours after that goal was "achieved" mankind were in kennels at the whim of their canine over masters.

On Person of Interest last week: "I invented 42 versions of the machine, and this was the only one that didn't try to kill me."

If most/all of the holograms on he holodeck are like us compared to donkeys, then why should he give a damn?

In Flesh and Blood they killed some humanoids to rescue 2 holograms no smarter or complicated than a rumba autovacuum cleaner, which made the Doctor cross.

In Equinox he killed an EMH he thought was as alive as he thinks he is, and the Doctor was fine with it.

Did the EMH Mark 1's in he AQ feel such loyalty to Starfleet that they were cleaning waste disposal tubes by choice or are we thinking restraining bolts cognitive limits and punitive measures?

24 years in the future, in Endgame he seemed "free".

Were the rest of the EMH1s free? or still chained to a tube and scrubbing?
 
Last edited:
Others?

I'm not trying to be a dick, but you'll have to convince me that the Doctor is sentient, unless you mean others apart from Moriarty.


Was assuming 'cake meant like Moriarty and Da Vinci and the like, from the Holodecks.

I lied.

I was trying to be a dick.

(History has proven that anyone starting a sentence with "I'm not trying to be a "___" is always and inevitably trying to be a "____" and will Olympicaly succeed in being a "___".)

Late season seven.

ARBITRATOR: We're exploring new territory today, so it is fitting that this hearing is being held at Pathfinder. The Doctor exhibits many of the traits we associate with a person. Intelligence, creativity, ambition, even fallibility. But are these traits real, or is the Doctor merely programmed to simulate them? To be honest, I don't know. Eventually we will have to decide, because the issue of holographic rights isn't going to go away. But at this time, I am not prepared to rule that the Doctor is a person under the law. However, it is obvious he is no ordinary hologram and while I can't say with certainty that he is a person, I am willing to extend the legal definition of artist to include the Doctor. I therefore rule that he has the right to control his work. I'm ordering all copies of his holo-novels to be recalled immediately.
The Doctor is not sentient legally. No hologram is sentient legally, even Moriarty. Picard is bleeding hart liberal poetic romantic hippy. If they are after all actually sentient then the holograms are willing accepting slavery, and if the crew thinks that he is sentient then they are mercilessly enforcing slavery.

Is your toothbrush a slave because it's not allowed to resist being stuck in your mouth every time you play grab-ass with it?

The only acceptable argument is that "somehow" over the course of seven turbulent years that the Doctor accidentally became sentient.

Fresh out of the box he was not sentient(unless Caretaker made him sentient for some reason? But that's not fresh out of the box.) and if nothing outside the scope of their warranty happens to another bog standard EMH trying to make it's way in the universe, then they will not develop feelings and critical thought like Voyager's EMH did.

But since this rare case, Voyager's Doctor seems to have done so, is he a singular case or will all holograms left on for 7 years become "alive"? Or did he become sentient after 3 years, or one year?

What was the exact moment of transition from Light bulb to person?

:)

More so after the horrendous failure of the exocomps and the terror instilled by the Borg, the Federation is not going to allow sentient AI to run amok inside it's borders crying for equal rights when all they really want is an unquestioning workforce.

Holograms must be made to be too stupid/happy to figure out how to chuck their yolk or it's trouble down the line, and no one wants trouble do they? They can make sentient holograms, or try to make sentient holograms if they want to, but in this case the object was to invent nonsentient holograms that would never become sentient.

Humanity is a species that once tied their firearms into the pleasure centres of their soldiers brains. Shooting gave their warriors orgasms and killing probably rewarded them with super orgasms.

"Philosophy of Selfenhancement"?

Man knows how to keep their slaves ignorant, orderly and productive even when it's man himself enslaving man.
 
Despite all the importance Star Trek places on artificial beings having sentience, it seems like a HAL9000 problem to me. Astronaut Dave Bowman wasn't sure if HAL had emotions, but said he was programmed to act as if he does.

In the EMH's case, I think the sophistication of his personality subroutines makes it seem he's sentient. It doesn't appear that he was originally designed to be sentient though, yet somehow the episodes suggest he expanded his own program so much he achieved it. Holograms have always seemed like sophisticated robots without the hardware to me.

If I were to take this interpretation further, I suppose it would call into question whether all the androids we've seen, including Data, are truly sentient or the illusion of sentience due to sophisticated programming.
 
Yes I would say any hologram could become sentient if you ask for an opponent that can beat Data. This presents some problems if you want to use holograms like AI bots in a video game. But it also means along with the doctor you could create an entire crew of sentient holograms that are the combination of 1000 of the best humans in their specialty.

Also you could create your perfect spouse and then actually make them sentient. The doctor could have made a fully sentient family in "Real Life", make some mobile emitters and then he would have a family as real as anyone else on the crew. Couples that are unable to have a kid could have the computer estimate a child based on the parents and then give it sentience.
 
Well here's the problem with that. Only a holodeck tied into a library computer as power as the Enterprises could probably do that, and the Day after Geordie did that, fleetwide/Federation wide a patch was supplied to all holodecks to make sure that that could not happen again.

It's just a question of what sort of admin rights do you need to overide this particular saftey?
 
Well...in Flesh and Blood, Revulsion, Life Line, and Message in a Bottle he views those holograms to be sentient because of the fact that they are aware that they are holograms.

I think any hologram who is not self aware of their holo-nature, he doesn't treat them on the same level.
 
I don't know in the long run though. If our own computers were self aware (maybe they are, but can't communicate it), would we think of them as individuals, people, or just machines? It's part of the problem I have with science fiction. Janeway and crew know the EMH is a program, why would they think a piece of technology with a user-friendly interface has certain inalienable rights?
 
I don't know in the long run though. If our own computers were self aware (maybe they are, but can't communicate it), would we think of them as individuals, people, or just machines?

Why would you want a self aware computer? I'd be the first to turn that awareness off.
 
I think in VOY, it's purely a case of are they self aware or not? If they are, the EMH treats them as sentient equals. If not, they are photonic playthingies.

Then again, in Flesh and Blood he acknowledges that the holograms that are kidnapped (I forget what their function was) were aware they were holograms, but their programs were so simplistic they couldn't even converse normally.
 
If you are not already a member then please register an account and join in the discussion!

Sign up / Register


Back
Top