The DS9 Relaunch - will it ever return to its roots again?

[DGCatAniSiri]

Yup--and didn't Crucible: McCoy set a record with 600 or so pages?

Let's see...Soul Key takes place...in early 2377. Destiny takes place in 2381.

That's...almost four years to cover--and the more detail, the better--show-don't-tell, that sorta thing.

Perhaps...we can break Crucible's record with this....

There's at least a decent chance of it happening - It IS a DRGIII book, after all.

 

[JD]

I don't want to belittle other people's feelings or opinions, but I genuinely don't understand all the problems people seem to be having with the DS9-R lately.

Saying that it's gone off at a tangent - how so? This is a storyline that's been building through 6 novels - Saturn's Children, Fragments and Omens, Olympus Descending, Warpath, Fearful Symmetry, The Soul Key. That's not a tangent - that's the story.

I completely agree with you here. First off, I just wanted to say that I've actually really enjoyed the MU/Illiana arc, but I love the whole MU, so I maybe I'm just weird. As for it being a tangent, sure it did kinda split off into a new direction, but it wasn't like it was some sudden shift, things did slowly build over several stories.

For example, even if the mirror universe arc was all planned out wouldn't three years have been enough to come up with something more compelling and recognisable to write about?

I would think a recurring element from the show, with a character who was a unseen, but still important, element of two episodes, would be alot more recogizable than villains who appeared once in TNG season 1 and then were never mentioned (onscreen) again.

 

[DS9Continuing]

Let's see...Soul Key takes place...in early 2377. Destiny takes place in 2381.

That's...almost four years to cover--and the more detail, the better--show-don't-tell, that sorta thing.

The actual "real-world" time alotted to the entire DS9-R so far is barely more than a year - which would normally equate to one season of TV. But there's definitely enough story to make two seasons. So I choose to see it as two years. I don't really see any need to cram it all in quite so tight anyway.

Here's how the two seasons plot out to me:

http://www.trekbbs.com/showpost.php?p=3118947&postcount=490

 

[Christopher]

That's...almost four years to cover--and the more detail, the better--show-don't-tell, that sorta thing.

Perhaps...we can break Crucible's record with this....

There's at least a decent chance of it happening - It IS a DRGIII book, after all.

It's not going to be done that way. The Rough Beasts of Empire is not going to fill in the entire period from The Soul Key onward, but is going to be entirely in the post-Destiny timeframe. After all, Full Circle already took the "fill in the whole gap" approach, so it would be kind of repetitive to do it again here.

Margaret's plan was to jump DS9 forward, keep it there, and then eventually do stories answering questions about the intervening time. Whether the new editor sticks to that plan or decides to go back and fill in the gap more directly or promptly is unknown, but TRBoE isn't going to fill the gap unless there's a major reworking under the new editor.

 

[RonG]

I have to agree with the OP, on at least the core idea of his post. While "real-world" delays (novel re-writing, layoffs) are understandable, I personally feel that the DS9-R has lost its focus.

I remember the "season 8" arc (Avatar to Unity) as some of the greatest TrekLit ever (certainly some of the best up to that point). Ever since Unity, however, things have seemed (to me at least) disjointed.

I freely admit that I don't connect to the MU as a recurring plot concept, and while I would have loved to get a spectacular epic at the end of it (much like Destiny came after a string of so-so TNGR Borg-cetric novels), I don't think it's going to happen...

Perhaps, we've been spoiled. Perhaps the overall quality of TrekLit has skyrocketed and DS-R was simply the harbinger of the great novels to come (Lost Era, Destiny, Vanguard etc..). But perhaps the DS9-R itself, once focused and carefully planned, just hit a snag.

IMHO, when looking at the DS9 novels of recent years, I don't understand why 5 novels focused on non-Relaunch timeframes (Hollow Men, Terok Nor trilogy - though the first book was exceptional - and Never Ending Sacrifice). This is a wasted opportunity to wrap up the Ascendants arc if I ever saw one

Last, I'd like to add my voice to those calling for a "fill the gaps" DS9-R tome.. The Ascendants arc has been going on for 5 (!) years, if not longer. Isn;t it time to get some sort of pay off?

 

[The Nth Doctor]

I thought about this thread on my walk back home and something occurred to me. This situation reminds me of how people felt during season 2 of LOST. There were several breaks throughout the season, sometimes only seeing two or three episodes before going on another two, three week break. People complained about the content of the season (many cited "Fire + Water" as a particular low point) and how it was getting off track. Hell, I was one of them. But as I discovered (as did others) while waiting for season 3, rewatching season 2 improved vastly when the episodes were viewed closer together.

I can't help but think the same thing is going on here. I'm reading The Soul Key right now and I have to admit that I'm struggling to remember certain story elements from Fearful Symmetry, let alone Saturn's Children, Warpath, "Fragments and Omens," and "Olympus Descending." Thank god for Memory Beta (and my own memory cells suddenly deciding to work). But I bet you anything I will enjoy this experience far more when I go back and re-read the aforementioned books together (just like I did with the Harry Potter series after I finished the final book). That being said, I'm loving The Soul Key. I just wish I had a better memory.

 

[Christopher]

IMHO, when looking at the DS9 novels of recent years, I don't understand why 5 novels focused on non-Relaunch timeframes (Hollow Men, Terok Nor trilogy - though the first book was exceptional - and Never Ending Sacrifice).

As for Hollow Men, there's a bit of a misconception there. If you'll notice, its cover logo is the standard DS9 logo, not the one specifically created for the post-finale series. Just because there was a series of post-finale DS9 novels, that doesn't mean there was some kind of ban on doing novels set during the series. Hollow Men was a story that Una McCormack developed and pitched to Marco Palmieri, and Marco liked it enough to buy it. That was separate from his overall plan for the post-finale novels. Remember, Marco edited plenty of other things besides DS9 -- not only other Trek series but non-Trek tie-in titles as well. So it's not like adding Hollow Men to the schedule somehow prevented another post-finale book from being published.

I don't know the circumstances behind The Never Ending Sacrifice, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was the same deal -- an author-developed project that was in addition to the DS9 post-finale material rather than replacing or delaying any of it. The fact that it came out just one month after The Soul Key is pretty much proof that its existence didn't cause any kind of delays in the post-finale schedule. It's a separate, coexisting thing. And the same is probably true of Terok Nor. These were projects Marco developed and edited alongside the post-finale stuff, not instead of it. If they hadn't existed, that doesn't guarantee there would've been more post-finale novels in their place.

Last, I'd like to add my voice to those calling for a "fill the gaps" DS9-R tome.. The Ascendants arc has been going on for 5 (!) years, if not longer. Isn;t it time to get some sort of pay off?

Has it really been "going on?" It was foreshadowed in a couple of books, but it wasn't specified how long it would be before it paid off. Sometimes a serial will lay a seed and not bring it to fruition for several years. Chris Claremont did it all the time in his X-Men comics. Straczynski did it in Babylon 5. Heck, a lot of the stuff in the DS9 post-finale books is picking up ideas that were established in the early years of DS9, or even the first season of TNG (the parasites), and not revisited for more than a decade.

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Last, I'd like to add my voice to those calling for a "fill the gaps" DS9-R tome.. The Ascendants arc has been going on for 5 (!) years, if not longer. Isn;t it time to get some sort of pay off?

Has it really been "going on?" It was foreshadowed in a couple of books, but it wasn't specified how long it would be before it paid off. Sometimes a serial will lay a seed and not bring it to fruition for several years. Chris Claremont did it all the time in his X-Men comics. Straczynski did it in Babylon 5. Heck, a lot of the stuff in the DS9 post-finale books is picking up ideas that were established in the early years of DS9, or even the first season of TNG (the parasites), and not revisited for more than a decade.

In purely historical terms, some of the things that the novels have done shouldn't have a pay-off for years, if not decades. The Bajoran Reformation that Avatar launched is the sort of thing that we might not see the end results of for another century or three. The Typhon Pact is a story that could span decades. The Ascendants, likewise, might be a long-festering issue that might not pose a genuine threat for several years.

 

[RonG]

Christopher and Allyn - you both make good points, yet I think (IMO), that stretching the Ascendants arc (or not even getting to it) after a few years, especially when there are long periods of time between DS9-R novels (I think this trend started with WoDS9...), serves only to alienate (at least part of) the readers...

Also, IIRC, Destiny had a line about dealing with the Ascendants as having occured in the past. Doesn't it mean (providing I do indeed remember actual events and not imagining it...), that the 5-year jump will "skip over" those events?

Will we need to wait for a novel(s?) to fill in te gaps, or maybe as some sort of flashback?

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Also, IIRC, Destiny had a line about dealing with the Ascendants as having occured in the past. Doesn't it mean (providing I do indeed remember actual events and not imagining it...), that the 5-year jump will "skip over" those events?

I remember the line about how Ezri had to deal with the fallout of the Mirror Universe events, but I don't recall a line specifically about the Ascendants. Doesn't mean it wasn't there, just that it didn't fix itself in my mind.

I wonder what the best approach might be, if it did happen in "the gap"? Depending on the nature of the story, perhaps a "Tales of the Ascendancy War" anthology? Anchor it with two novellas, and then tell stories of how the various crews may have dealt with the problem. I can't imagine that it was an all-DS9 fest.

 

[RonG]

Also, IIRC, Destiny had a line about dealing with the Ascendants as having occured in the past. Doesn't it mean (providing I do indeed remember actual events and not imagining it...), that the 5-year jump will "skip over" those events?

I remember the line about how Ezri had to deal with the fallout of the Mirror Universe events, but I don't recall a line specifically about the Ascendants. Doesn't mean it wasn't there, just that it didn't fix itself in my mind.

I wonder what the best approach might be, if it did happen in "the gap"? Depending on the nature of the story, perhaps a "Tales of the Ascendancy War" anthology? Anchor it with two novellas, and then tell stories of how the various crews may have dealt with the problem. I can't imagine that it was an all-DS9 fest.

I would think it best to stay with the DS9 cast for this arc. Consider, that Voyager is still in the DQ, Titan is 4 years pre-launch and TNG is a year before ATT... IMO it would be anti-climatic and unsuspenful, as we've seen the "future" for those crews...

A DS9 \ COE \ GKN crossover, however....

 

[Allyn Gibson]

Oh, I could definitely see Klag and the Gorkon involved. I like the way you think.

 

[RonG]

It just seemed natural to involve the series we don't know a whole lot about post-Nemesis and post-Destiny

I actually have a whole different plot outline in my head for the Ascendants arc (post-Typhon Pact), and would be more than happy to share it with Trek authors - No compensation needed - just write that story already

 

[Paris]

Huge Klag fan right here! I also dig RonG's thought process. Allyn's idea of a "Tales of..." anthology would be awesome. It would be a great way to fill in the gaps and catch-up the series. Good way to bring in new readers as well ...

 

[David Mack]

Also, IIRC, Destiny had a line about dealing with the Ascendants as having occured in the past.

No, it didn't. Marco asked me specifically not to mention the Ascendants in Destiny.

 

[RonG]

well then, that settles it

now, I can pitch MY version of the Ascendants arc!
(seriously, I do have an outline I'm dying to hand over to a Trek author.. )

 

[Thrawn]

Yeah, I just assumed, with the end of the Soul Key and the coming time-jump, that we'd just have a 5 year period in which Taran'atar is bombing around in the Gamma Quadrant, and the Ascendants are slowly gaining strength. They have a leader now (or something), but that doesn't mean it won't be a while before they're ready to deploy.

The Terok Nor trilogy is full of all kinds of religious visions that foreshadow events many, many years in the future. It's not at all unreasonable for Kira's visions to foreshadow events 5 or 6 or 7 years off.

 

[Sci]

Yeah, I just assumed, with the end of the Soul Key and the coming time-jump, that we'd just have a 5 year period in which Taran'atar is bombing around in the Gamma Quadrant, and the Ascendants are slowly gaining strength. They have a leader now (or something), but that doesn't mean it won't be a while before they're ready to deploy.

The Terok Nor trilogy is full of all kinds of religious visions that foreshadow events many, many years in the future. It's not at all unreasonable for Kira's visions to foreshadow events 5 or 6 or 7 years off.

No, but it does violate the creative conceit that the DS9 Relaunch had been operating on previously: That it was a heavily-serialized story with many important events happening in rapid succession, with relatively little time in between crises. I mean, the period between March 2376 and March 2377 had -- what, the rogue Jem'Hadar crisis, the Bajoran Reformation crisis starting, the Ethan Loken crisis, the Gateways crisis, the launch of the Corps of Exploration, negotiations between the Bajoran and Cardassian governments and their collapse, Thriss's suicide, the start up of peace exchanges between the Bajoran church and the Oralians, four separate crisis in the Gamma Quadrant, the assassination of Shakaar/Parasite crisis, the crisis on Andor, the Cardassian rebuilding arc, the Trill bombing, the start of the Mirror Universe crisis, the ongoing events Jake had in the Gamma Quadrant, the ongoing Mirror Universe crisis...

... and then suddenly we go from all that in just one year and skip another five years?

That's a pretty fundamental break from the DS9 Relaunch's creative conceits.

 

[RonG]

Yeah, I just assumed, with the end of the Soul Key and the coming time-jump, that we'd just have a 5 year period in which Taran'atar is bombing around in the Gamma Quadrant, and the Ascendants are slowly gaining strength. They have a leader now (or something), but that doesn't mean it won't be a while before they're ready to deploy.

The Terok Nor trilogy is full of all kinds of religious visions that foreshadow events many, many years in the future. It's not at all unreasonable for Kira's visions to foreshadow events 5 or 6 or 7 years off.

No, but it does violate the creative conceit that the DS9 Relaunch had been operating on previously: That it was a heavily-serialized story with many important events happening in rapid succession, with relatively little time in between crises. I mean, the period between March 2376 and March 2377 had -- what, the rogue Jem'Hadar crisis, the Bajoran Reformation crisis starting, the Ethan Loken crisis, the Gateways crisis, the launch of the Corps of Exploration, negotiations between the Bajoran and Cardassian governments and their collapse, Thriss's suicide, the start up of peace exchanges between the Bajoran church and the Oralians, four separate crisis in the Gamma Quadrant, the assassination of Shakaar/Parasite crisis, the crisis on Andor, the Cardassian rebuilding arc, the Trill bombing, the start of the Mirror Universe crisis, the ongoing events Jake had in the Gamma Quadrant, the ongoing Mirror Universe crisis...

... and then suddenly we go from all that in just one year and skip another five years?

That's a pretty fundamental break from the DS9 Relaunch's creative conceits.

I think the Relaunch's "creative conceits", as you put it, Sci, can still be maintained if, post-five year jump, we have a different cast / setting / circumstances on DS9 (i.e. things HAVE happened during the "gap"), and reveal what led to these changes over time, flashbacks, or a specifically designed novel(s)...

 

[Thrawn]

Yeah, I just assumed, with the end of the Soul Key and the coming time-jump, that we'd just have a 5 year period in which Taran'atar is bombing around in the Gamma Quadrant, and the Ascendants are slowly gaining strength. They have a leader now (or something), but that doesn't mean it won't be a while before they're ready to deploy.

The Terok Nor trilogy is full of all kinds of religious visions that foreshadow events many, many years in the future. It's not at all unreasonable for Kira's visions to foreshadow events 5 or 6 or 7 years off.

No, but it does violate the creative conceit that the DS9 Relaunch had been operating on previously: That it was a heavily-serialized story with many important events happening in rapid succession, with relatively little time in between crises. I mean, the period between March 2376 and March 2377 had -- what, the rogue Jem'Hadar crisis, the Bajoran Reformation crisis starting, the Ethan Loken crisis, the Gateways crisis, the launch of the Corps of Exploration, negotiations between the Bajoran and Cardassian governments and their collapse, Thriss's suicide, the start up of peace exchanges between the Bajoran church and the Oralians, four separate crisis in the Gamma Quadrant, the assassination of Shakaar/Parasite crisis, the crisis on Andor, the Cardassian rebuilding arc, the Trill bombing, the start of the Mirror Universe crisis, the ongoing events Jake had in the Gamma Quadrant, the ongoing Mirror Universe crisis...

... and then suddenly we go from all that in just one year and skip another five years?

That's a pretty fundamental break from the DS9 Relaunch's creative conceits.

I'm not so sure I agree. Sure, a lot of stuff happens, but very little of it is Game Changing - Bajor entering the Federation, yes, but very little of the rest of it changes much.

I mean, if you showed someone the first episode of the DS9 series and then the seventh season premier, there would be some major changes (dominion war, new characters, Jadzia dead) but the overall landscape would still be recognizable... and a TON of things happened in that time that would not be essential knowledge to pick up and keep watching.

It's a challenge to the editors/author to create a new situation that would show us 5 years worth of important things had happened, but it's not a violation of the series's conceits.