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The Diane Carey novels

If your most political novels involve a complete repudiation of the Federation and Starfleet and they values they represent, and remove the characters from the space and cultures that we know from Star Trek, that's no longer a different take on Star Trek, it's some other thing entirely. Based on the one novel published as a Challenger novel, a Challenger series wouldn't have been a different take on Trek, it would be an original Diane Carey SF series branded as Star Trek for marketing reasons.

I've read The Moon is a Harsh Mistress. I own a copy. I have a lot of other Heinlein novels, too. But he wrote his books in his own universes; he set the ground rules.
 
I see no reason to brand an author as some have Carey unless that author is outright offensive in either their works or their personal conduct.

While I find the quality of her Star Trek works to be highly volatile (ranging from really good to really bad), the only work by Carey I would rate as offensive is her WWII story World of Strangers in Enterprise Logs, which to me read like propaganda published several decades too late and basically said it's O.K. to imprison people because of their heritage.
 
While I find the quality of her Star Trek works to be highly volatile (ranging from really good to really bad), the only work by Carey I would rate as offensive is her WWII story World of Strangers in Enterprise Logs, which to me read like propaganda published several decades too late and basically said it's O.K. to imprison people because of their heritage.

Good point. I don't find her politics elsewhere offensive, just kind of offkilter, like an Ayn Rand movie adaptation that teaches how important it is to pay your taxes and give money to the needy. But that story was racist, plain and simple.
 
Enterprise Logs? When/what was that? I don't remember ever seeing or reading that.

And I very much disagree that something isn't Star Trek simply because it has different views. Just as our own universe has very diverse viewpoints, including ones in diametric opposition with each other, so too would a realistic Star Trek universe. Total conformity simply is not realistic, and this added a nice dimension to the Trekiverse in that we got to see what happens with some of the dissenters. Just as the books provide additional depth to the Klingon, Romulan, Cardassian, and Trill cultures, some of which was really just hinted at on the shows, I see the New Earth series as doing the same with the culture of the Federation.

These people do come from the Trek culture we know, and that history will always be ingrained in them even when it's something for them to react against, but they are changing and growing as a result of their experiences. Whether or not you like the direction they grow in is a different matter--but it's not at all illegitimate because it disagrees. And frankly, if a rule of the Trekiverse is that there can be no dissent, then that really speaks to some serious insecurity on the part of the Federation in both ideological and possibly even physical terms that they cannot brook any dissent from their supposedly peaceable beliefs.

Which of course calls for that famous Eddington quote. But unlike Eddington and the Maquis, who were completely out of line in the way they expressed their dissent, the people on the New Earth expedition did so in an ethically acceptable manner that I find very easy to empathize with. And frankly, as much fun as it is to read about the Trekiverse, if I actually lived there, I'd very likely be on the expedition or something similar myself.
 
Enterprise Logs is a Star Trek anthology published in 2000 featuring stories about captains of ships called Enterprise, including one set in the 18th Century and on set on the WWII aircraft carrier Enterprise (both written by Carey) beside those for the Star Trek captains.
 
Enterprise Logs? When/what was that? I don't remember ever seeing or reading that.

Click here.

And I very much disagree that something isn't Star Trek simply because it has different views.
What I said was, something isn't Star Trek if it doesn't have anything from Star Trek in it. Challenger wouldn't have had anything from Star Trek in it.
 
But you seem to be suggesting that for something to have Star Trek in it, it has to conform ideologically to the Roddenberryesque view, take place on a starship with crew and worlds we're familiar with, etc. I'm curious, do you think DS9 is Star Trek? DS9 sure was at loggerheads with the TNG ideal, took place on a space station, and so on. Involvement of the familiar Trek culture was there at times, but questioned aggressively at every turn. As far as I'm concerned, Challenger would've pushed that boundary further, but is no more shocking than DS9.
 
While I find the quality of her Star Trek works to be highly volatile (ranging from really good to really bad), the only work by Carey I would rate as offensive is her WWII story World of Strangers in Enterprise Logs, which to me read like propaganda published several decades too late and basically said it's O.K. to imprison people because of their heritage.

Good point. I don't find her politics elsewhere offensive, just kind of offkilter, like an Ayn Rand movie adaptation that teaches how important it is to pay your taxes and give money to the needy. But that story was racist, plain and simple.

I don't think that's a fair assessment. It wasn't saying "Japanese people should've been locked up because they were Japanese." It was more like it was offering an explanation for why well-intentioned Americans in WWII could've concluded that interning Japanese-Americans in camps was necessary for reasons other than simple racism. I.e. not so much an attack on the Japanese as a defense of (or apologia for) the Americans. There's certainly plenty of room for disagreement and debate with that position, but it's not nearly as simplistic as you claim.

Sure, it's not a story that endorses Trekkian values, but as a story depicting the mindset of the captain of an aircraft carrier serving in the Pacific during WWII, it's certainly more believable for that captain to support America's internment policy than for him to be a progressive thinker decades ahead of his time. (Although my Googling turned up nothing on what Captain Osborne B. Hardison really thought about the internment policy, unless I wanted to contact Columbia University or the University of North Carolina for their research materials involving the man.)
 
The problem for me is that the story never ever really showed the other side of the possible debate, and for me you have to actually show both sides of a coin to really be thought provoking, but from what I remember (it's about half a decade since I read the story) the Japanese American in the story was pretty much branded as the "bad guy" by Carey.

And at least to me the story very much read as if Diane Carey was fully endorsing the portrayed mindset.
 
^It's not my place to offer an opinion on whether she endorsed it or not. I just think it's inaccurate to describe the viewpoint expressed in the story as "racism, plain and simple."
 
But you seem to be suggesting that for something to have Star Trek in it, it has to conform ideologically to the Roddenberryesque view,

There's no such thing as a Roddenberryesque view. TOS and TNG were philosophically different in a number of respects. They shared some pretty basic moderate liberal values that even many conservatives can agree with, though: racism and sexism are bad, science is better than superstition, and the government has a legitimate role in society.

I'm curious, do you think DS9 is Star Trek? DS9 sure was at loggerheads with the TNG ideal, took place on a space station, and so on. Involvement of the familiar Trek culture was there at times, but questioned aggressively at every turn. As far as I'm concerned, Challenger would've pushed that boundary further, but is no more shocking than DS9.
DS9 challenged a lot about Star Trek while being Star Trek. Federation, Starfleet, Bajorans, Cardassians, Trill, Klingons... that's all Star Trek stuff. Challenger wouldn't have had that. More importantly, when DS9 took a different look at Star Trek, it was often challenging not so much its values as its failure to live up to those values.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with doing something that challenges the core assumptions and values of Star Trek. But if you do that without any of the trappings of Star Trek -- and this is what you gloss over; Challenger would have had nothing recognizably Star Trek in it, aside from possibly the words "phaser" and "transporter" -- are you really doing Star Trek?

Have you read Chainmail? If not, you may not get the point I'm trying to make. If there'd been future Challenger novels, it would have been completely possible for them to have no more connection to anything Star Trek than Lois McMaster Bujold's SF novels, or David Weber's, or Iain M. Banks's beyond the words "Star Trek" being printed on the cover. If American copyright laws worked like British copyright laws, Carey could have taken everything she created for New Earth and Challenger to another publisher and continued it as her own series of books.

^It's not my place to offer an opinion on whether she endorsed it or not. I just think it's inaccurate to describe the viewpoint expressed in the story as "racism, plain and simple."

I haven't read the story in years, and I'm not about to bother reading it again, but as I recall it presents the internment of Japanese Americans as completely justifiable and ethical, and the only character in the story who has a problem with it is a Japanese-American who turns out to be a traitor. I don't remember any nuanced exploration of the issues; I just remember a stacked deck.
 
Its been years since I've read any of her books. Hard to recall them. I think Duane was the Diane I didn't like. And neither one ever introduced a Vulcan named Stephen.
 
But you seem to be suggesting that for something to have Star Trek in it, it has to conform ideologically to the Roddenberryesque view,

There's no such thing as a Roddenberryesque view. TOS and TNG were philosophically different in a number of respects. They shared some pretty basic moderate liberal values that even many conservatives can agree with, though: racism and sexism are bad, science is better than superstition, and the government has a legitimate role in society.

Whether or not we like it, Roddenberry DID put a huge philosophical imprint on Star Trek--TNG even more than TOS.

And yes, some of those values are positive...eliminating racism and sexism are the only two that I see up there, though, that are totally un-arguable. Those are absolutes.

However, to suggest as TNG sometimes did that religion has no place in society--well thank God that Roddenberry had no control over DS9 or we never would've had such a three-dimensional take on the Bajoran religion and the Prophets (which really was remarkable in that it showed ALL facets of religion, good and bad and let the viewer decide instead of preaching either way). Science is excellent, and I have no problem whatsoever accepting what it discovers. I am not threatened by it nor do I have any need to doctor the theories for literalist purposes. Yet to suggest that science in its very nature excludes a creator, and the possibility of a higher right and wrong than what we individually devise--that I will never agree with.

As for government, the legitimacy of its role is again debatable--at least, as to the extent of the role. We never really got to see the tradeoffs that were made to achieve a utopian society, to see legitimate dissent. Most dissenters have either been crazy (Colonel West, the Terra Prime whackos, and the Maquis), or portrayed as hopelessly behind the times and ignorant (the Picard family excepting Jean-Luc himself, the Bringloidi, and sometimes Joseph Sisko--though I must say, he was a cut above the others). We haven't had a chance to see people disagree with the Federation and act on it without threatening others or committing other illegal acts. In showing us that, I think New Earth really does a valuable service to the Treklit world.

I'm curious, do you think DS9 is Star Trek? DS9 sure was at loggerheads with the TNG ideal, took place on a space station, and so on. Involvement of the familiar Trek culture was there at times, but questioned aggressively at every turn. As far as I'm concerned, Challenger would've pushed that boundary further, but is no more shocking than DS9.
DS9 challenged a lot about Star Trek while being Star Trek. Federation, Starfleet, Bajorans, Cardassians, Trill, Klingons... that's all Star Trek stuff. Challenger wouldn't have had that. More importantly, when DS9 took a different look at Star Trek, it was often challenging not so much its values as its failure to live up to those values.

Anyway, there's nothing wrong with doing something that challenges the core assumptions and values of Star Trek. But if you do that without any of the trappings of Star Trek -- and this is what you gloss over; Challenger would have had nothing recognizably Star Trek in it, aside from possibly the words "phaser" and "transporter" -- are you really doing Star Trek?

Have you read Chainmail? If not, you may not get the point I'm trying to make. If there'd been future Challenger novels, it would have been completely possible for them to have no more connection to anything Star Trek than Lois McMaster Bujold's SF novels, or David Weber's, or Iain M. Banks's beyond the words "Star Trek" being printed on the cover. If American copyright laws worked like British copyright laws, Carey could have taken everything she created for New Earth and Challenger to another publisher and continued it as her own series of books.

Not necessarily. I did read the entire New Earth series, everything that was ever written for it.

Like I said, you would've not just had the technology, but the cultural inheritance--whether they like it or not--of the Federation. Furthermore, there's the very real question of how long a world like that could remain isolated. They'd start having brushes with the outside world as Federation territory grew (and it definitely did in leaps and bounds as we move into the 24th century), conflicts with other known powers as their territories grew, and so on. You'd also start to see factionalization on their world, as is inevitable with any humanoid society, with some wanting to turn back towards the larger galaxy and others wanting to remain in isolation. Regardless of whether they tried to isolate themselves from the rest of the Alpha Quadrant, it would come to them.

That said, even writing things in the meantime before they became surrounded on all sides by the powers we know will still be Trek...as I said, they will inevitably have the cultural inheritance and memories of the Federation. Its past will affect their future, no matter how much they try to avoid it.

Oh, and I do not believe American copyright laws as I understand them would allow Carey to take her characters and work over to another publisher after it's had the Star Trek name on it and been written under that licensing agreement. You might be able to get away with brief references, as I've seen between Duane's Trek works and her Young Wizards series, but I don't think she'd be able to take her works elsewhere unless she had a contract like Harlan Ellison's for the "City on the Edge of Forever" screenplay. Not to mention that once pulled out of the history that created them, they would become different characters anyway.

We'll need a Trek author to speak to that point, though, to be completely sure.
 
I haven't read the story in years, and I'm not about to bother reading it again, but as I recall it presents the internment of Japanese Americans as completely justifiable and ethical, and the only character in the story who has a problem with it is a Japanese-American who turns out to be a traitor. I don't remember any nuanced exploration of the issues; I just remember a stacked deck.

That's not the part I'm disputing. My point is that the reasons the story's Captain Hardison gave for the validity of the internment policy were not racially based -- or at least were not plain and simple racism.

I'm not saying it's wrong to disagree with the story's point of view. I'm saying that disagreement should be fair, based on what the story actually said rather than on a caricature like "racism, plain and simple." There are certainly racial ideas put forth in the story that are worth arguing with, but they're not plain and simple. Right or wrong, the arguments the story's Hardison presents are more subtle than that. (Although it is possible to distill them to "Yes, what we're doing is bad, but the other guys started it and they're doing worse." Which is pretty much like the Bush administration's arguments in favor of wiretapping and waterboarding.)

When I read the story, I disagreed with the perspective of the character, and I was uncomfortable with what the story seemed to be suggesting. But it certainly made me think. And it forced me to recognize that the other side of the issue was not something I could reduce to a simple caricature; I couldn't just assume that the people behind the internment were motivated only by cookie-cutter racism. We should be willing to listen to other points of view and think about them even -- perhaps especially -- when we disagree with them. At the very least, when we criticise them, it's important to do so as fairly and accurately as possible.


Oh, and I do not believe American copyright laws as I understand them would allow Carey to take her characters and work over to another publisher after it's had the Star Trek name on it and been written under that licensing agreement.

They wouldn't. Steve didn't say that she could actually have done that, just that if US copyright laws worked that way, she could've done that.
 
Enterprise Logs is a Star Trek anthology published in 2000 featuring stories about captains of ships called Enterprise, including one set in the 18th Century and on set on the WWII aircraft carrier Enterprise (both written by Carey) beside those for the Star Trek captains.
Hmmm. A Star Trek book that contains stories having nothing to do with Star Trek? Excuse me while I rush out and buy a copy.
 
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Libertarianism is at the core of the New Earth books, and it's strange to see Kirk and his crew espousing a longing for libertarianism. Carey occasionally has characterization problems, and having the crew mouth the idea that government is bad and shackles freedom was random and absurd.

Actually, it's not uncalled for. Recall ALL those episodes in which Kirk and Co. effectively destroy "paradise" for alien societies--because the computer/ruler/government is, in Kirk's mind, infringing on the freedom of the people.

Sounds pretty libertarian to me.

And pretty Liberal, and pretty Conservative. Those episodes tend to present societies that are unambiguously tyrannical to the sensibilities of anybody raised in a liberal democracy, be they followers of Reagan, Rand, or Kennedy.

But Star Trek has always been a program with a decidedly Liberal political slant, and to try to foist Libertarianism (which really ought to be called Propertarianism) onto it is like trying to graft a belief in Socialism onto Atlas Shrugged. It just doesn't work.

Now, sure, you could do a story about dissident Federates and how they relate to the larger Federation. But that's not the same thing -- and, frankly, I don't think that such a story, or ANY Star Trek story, ought to be advocating for values that fundamentally conflict with the Liberal values that underpin the Federation/Star Trek.
 
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I don't think that's a fair assessment. It wasn't saying "Japanese people should've been locked up because they were Japanese." It was more like it was offering an explanation for why well-intentioned Americans in WWII could've concluded that interning Japanese-Americans in camps was necessary for reasons other than simple racism. I.e. not so much an attack on the Japanese as a defense of (or apologia for) the Americans. There's certainly plenty of room for disagreement and debate with that position, but it's not nearly as simplistic as you claim.
Okay, I just reviewed the story.

And yes, it absolutely is as simplistic as Defcon and Steve claim. The only explanation is, "Yes, internment is racist and unfair. But there really are some Jap spies in the US, so prove you're a good American and STFU, and be grateful this is the worst that happens to you. Besides, it's all Hirohito's fault, anyway."

And yes, Carey tries to give Hardison a bit more complexity (though why she opted to write this story as straight external dialogue without examining Hardison's inner thoughts is a mystery to me), but his "some of my best friends are Japanese" just ends up coming across as empty words.

^It's not my place to offer an opinion on whether she endorsed it or not.
I disagree. This is a story written for a mass audience. It is absolutely the place of the audience members to draw their own conclusions about what ideas are being expressed or conveyed, whether intended by the author or not. (And to politely disagree with other audience members who draw different conclusions.)

I just think it's inaccurate to describe the viewpoint expressed in the story as "racism, plain and simple."
And IMHO, "plain, simple racism" is a perfectly reasonable description to ascribe to this disturbing little tale.
 
Oh, please not this debate again....

WHY do people keep bringing up Diane Carey, if it always winds up with her being smeared as a racist and a soapbox shove-down-the-throat lecturer?

BTW...I THINK the reason Carey made it all external could have been...so that the readers would have a right to shake their heads and say, "That's wrong. I may understand why he feels that way--considering the time, but it's still wrong."

Had she done the "Inner feelings" thing, some of her readers might have thought, "You know...his POV might actually be legit."

But that's just me. Feel free to throw the tomatoes. I have a poncho on, for my safety. ;)
 
Now, sure, you could do a story about dissident Federates and how they relate to the larger Federation. But that's not the same thing -- and, frankly, I don't think that such a story, or ANY Star Trek story, ought to be advocating for values that fundamentally conflict with the Liberal values that underpin the Federation/Star Trek.

And yet Deep Space Nine did that all the time. Is it unworthy of being Trek?

And I also find it interesting that you're basically advocating censorship...
 
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