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The Diane Carey novels

my feelings of DC's books are that they're usually shit.

Final Frontier, I read at least three times at high school from the HS library and thought it was awesome. but i am prepared to consider i may have been wrong. i've not re-read it in over 15 years.

First Frontier was boring ass crap. i just didn't buy the stupid premise.

Best Destiny was so shite i barely remember the plot other than so crap about Kirk's youth which i didn't buy and some stupid technobabble (anti-proton flushback) that stuck with me and the god-awful ship name USS Bill of Rights. oh, and the idiotic idea that all Constitution class vessels were suddenly retired en mass, and not in a more believeable phasing out.

Dreadnought and Battlestations - ugh, i just remember hating Piper and her Vulcan buddy. the only bit i liked was the central American jungle training sequence.

Ancient Blood, was balls. dunno if i even finished it.

Wagon Train to the Stars i read once and thought it was dreck and don't remember much else.

haven't read any of her other original Trek novels, only the novelisations of The Search, WOTW and Trials and Tribble-ations
 
I'm not too found of the Diane Carey novels. Not just because of the higher mary sue levels Piper ended up with, but mostly how she constantly describes space as if it were an ocean. I know this happens on the show as well, and other writers occasionally make the mistake as well, but she takes it to ridiculous extremes.
 
I've liked what I've read, but I've not read it all by any means.

All I can remember for sure that I've read are the first Piper book and Ship of the Line. I don't think they were the best Trek books I've ever read, but they were a fun diversion. And I like her more militaristic portrayal of Starfleet. It makes her books stand out for me, and I tend to prefer a more militaristic Starfleet anyway.
 
Diane Carey is most likely one of my least favorite authors who's contributed to ST. I found Piper, despite her "faults," an unbearable Mary Sue. A contrived, female Kirk wannabe, with her own little "troika" consisting of a Vulcan and a Southerner. Real original! Plus, I don't care for her politics, and her pseudo-racist ramblings when it comes to making humans far superior to Vulcans and other Federation races -- stand-ins for America and the rest of the world. Thinly veiled Manifest Destiny, pro-Western nonsense. The only other authors who've contributed to ST I found even more tedious are Sondra Marshak and Myrna Culbreath -- I found their novels downright ridiculous, and their understanding of the Kirk-Spock dynamic misguided. -- RR
 
There, see this is why I cringe whenever someone brings up Diane Carey. SOMEHOW, it always winds up with folks engaging is smears and rants that involve blowing her political ideas out of proportion--

(ADD moment: Considering that, I quite frankly fear for myself, should I ever go pro....)

--over-applying the "Mary Sue" stereotype (which, BTW, seems way to vauge to have any meaning), and so on.

Okay, okay. I think we can safely assume that she's...polarizing.

You either lover her...or hate her.

I guess I'm in the "love" catergory--but hey, I've been The One Who Resists The Tug Of Popular Sentiment before...so I'm used to it.

For the most part.
 
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^ I happen to think that, on the whole, she's rather mediocre, actually :lol:

But yes, polarizing at least in the sense that some people really hate her a lot. I just think she's kind of uneven; I loved Fire Ship, Station Rage, and First Strike, but thought Red Sector was one of the worst Trek books I've read. And there are plenty of in-between examples; Ancient Blood, New Earth 1 & 6, etc. Just all over the place.
 
Okay, okay. I think we can safely assume that [Diane Carey]'s...polarizing.

You either lover her...or hate her.

No, you really CAN'T safely assume any such thing -- I liked Dreadnought! and Battlestations! back in the day, and thought Final Frontier was terrific. I'm a lot less enthusiastic about her later Trek stuff - I found New Earth to be essentially unreadable (I know Carey didn't write it all, but she did have a big hand in its development, even if other writers were brought onboard to pen half the series.)

So, when she's good, she's good. When she's not, she's not. Just like any other writer.

Rush, it's never safe to assume, because when you ASS U ME...
 
She doesn't seem to care for TNG, though. Her Ghost Ship has Picard and Co. being very unlikable.

Ghost Ship would be a book I'd give a pass on with the characterization - being the first original TNG novel, no one really had an idea of who the characters were when it was actually being written.

For what it's worth, I tend to enjoy her novels. The only thing that really stands out in them is what is obviously her own love of ships of the sea, and in her novels, it seems like EVERYONE has a passion for. That, I think, is one of the things in her writing that is a 'love it or hate it' kind of thing.
Yeah, Ghost ship portrays some of the characters as total a-holes, but I think it's pretty well in line with Encounter at Farpoint. Everyone's really stiff and Picard's a total hardass. :lol:
 
I think some of this negative opinion is totally off target, and, shameless to some degree. Her books, like the movies of the early 80s, are a product of their time, and were, IMO, among the best. Yes, just like aspects of the TNG/TOS tv series, some of the product seems dated or, as trek fans do, we like to go back and nitpik things that were produced 20+ years ago and find reasons to knock them down a few pegs..

I liked her books THEN and that is all that matters...to me.

Rob
 
Okay, okay. I think we can safely assume that [Diane Carey]'s...polarizing.

You either lover her...or hate her.

No, you really CAN'T safely assume any such thing -- I liked Dreadnought! and Battlestations! back in the day, and thought Final Frontier was terrific. I'm a lot less enthusiastic about her later Trek stuff - I found New Earth to be essentially unreadable (I know Carey didn't write it all, but she did have a big hand in its development, even if other writers were brought onboard to pen half the series.)

So, when she's good, she's good. When she's not, she's not. Just like any other writer.

Rush, it's never safe to assume, because when you ASS U ME...

:wtf: Temper, temper....

Okay, let me rephrase.

You're either fine with her...or you hate her guts.
 
I think some of this negative opinion is totally off target, and, shameless to some degree. Her books, like the movies of the early 80s, are a product of their time, and were, IMO, among the best. Yes, just like aspects of the TNG/TOS tv series, some of the product seems dated or, as trek fans do, we like to go back and nitpik things that were produced 20+ years ago and find reasons to knock them down a few pegs..

I liked her books THEN and that is all that matters...to me.

Rob

Good call, Rob! :techman:
 
Wesley Crusher was Gene's Mary Sue (his middle name was Wesley) and look how well that turned out. Props to Wil Wheaton, though, who did the very best he could with what he was given.
 
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Yes--and indeed, Wes was only a "Marty Sue", per se, in the first season, really. By the second season, he blended into the crew a LOT better.

And he did have some strong episodes--like the nanite ep, and "Final Mission".
 
What kind of political views does she have that everyone is so opposed to?

In her books, she tends to promote a libertarian/conservative agenda. The most blatant case is the New Earth series, about a bunch of libertarians who have decided that they don't want anything at all to do with the big government approach of the Federation and Starfleet, so they get the Federation and Starfleet to protect them while they travel to and establish their distant colony planet where they can live without the oppressive domination of the Federation and Starfleet.

Ironically, like so many anti-government conservatives, she loves everything military, and she supports the American invasion of Iraq -- though traditionally libertarians have been opposed to foreign entanglements. But then, by the time she was running for the Michigan state legislature a few years ago, she had posiitoned herself as a more conventional Christian conservative. Libertarians often have issues with the Christian right's willingness to have government act as an enforcer of morality, but Carey started parroting Christian conservative policy on the importance of Christianity and the evil of abortion, etc.

(FWIW, I'm not anti-military; my parents are both ex-Air Force, my best friend is serving overseas right now with the Army, and a brother-in-law of mine is also in the Army and has served tours in Cyprus, Bosnia, and Afghanistan. But I'm not any kind of conservative, or Christian, or American.)
 
What kind of political views does she have that everyone is so opposed to?

In her books, she tends to promote a libertarian/conservative agenda. The most blatant case is the New Earth series, about a bunch of libertarians who have decided that they don't want anything at all to do with the big government approach of the Federation and Starfleet, so they get the Federation and Starfleet to protect them while they travel to and establish their distant colony planet where they can live without the oppressive domination of the Federation and Starfleet.

Ironically, like so many anti-government conservatives, she loves everything military, and she supports the American invasion of Iraq -- though traditionally libertarians have been opposed to foreign entanglements. But then, by the time she was running for the Michigan state legislature a few years ago, she had posiitoned herself as a more conventional Christian conservative. Libertarians often have issues with the Christian right's willingness to have government act as an enforcer of morality, but Carey started parroting Christian conservative policy on the importance of Christianity and the evil of abortion, etc.

(FWIW, I'm not anti-military; my parents are both ex-Air Force, my best friend is serving overseas right now with the Army, and a brother-in-law of mine is also in the Army and has served tours in Cyprus, Bosnia, and Afghanistan. But I'm not any kind of conservative, or Christian, or American.)

Whether or not you happen to agree with it, a libertarian/conservative backlash IS a reasonable political development to expect, as the government takes increasing control over society (a move that very likely occurred during the transition from 23rd to 24th centuries, judging from the progression of Federation culture in that time). As such, I see nothing unrealistic about the Belle Terre expedition and the attitudes of the people who run it and to my mind, Carey picked the appropriate setting and plot to express what was on her mind. The context made sense, and since it made sense, I do not think dismissing it as bad writing simply because of a disagreement is legitimate.

After all, if your objections are that strong, a societal movement of that magnitude, you're really left with three choices: accept it and live within its bounds and keep your grumbling private, overthrow it, or get the hell out of Dodge. In our current world, the first two are our only real choices (with "overthrow," of course, confined to the symbolic overthrowing of free elections). But in the Star Trek universe, with so much unsettled territory, self-exile once again becomes a viable and in many ways preferable solution as it was for the colonists who ran away from hostile governments to found the colonies here in the states. (And some of THEM then ran into trouble in their burgeoning societies and founded NEW colonies in the Americas. See Rhode Island for one example.) Getting the chance to live as they see fit, under the system they see fit, makes a great deal of sense and one would expect, if the Federation still retains the proper degree of freedom, that people can voluntarily leave if they don't like what's going on.

(This may also go a ways towards explaining the degree of conformity seen in Federation society and Starfleet...those who have severe enough gripes tend to leave rather than put up a political fight.)

As to libertarianism, it comes in different shades, some of them going all the way to anarcho-libertarianism in which there is not a real government to something that simply advocates small government. Under the second version, a military CAN be a legitimate purpose of government, as is infrastructure, and this is what the Belle Terre colonists seem to be thinking. They're uneasy with Starfleet since it isn't under the kind of governmental system they would like it to be, but the fact that they're libertarians does not necessarily mean that they should see no role for a government or a standing military.

One final point. I do think that authors should be free to have their points of view. All entertainment, or science fiction, heck, even all of Star Trek should not have to be liberal; in the case of Star Trek, while there is a lot of liberal influence, you're talking about an entire universe and there is room for other views. I see no reason to brand an author as some have Carey unless that author is outright offensive in either their works or their personal conduct. If you don't like the New Earth series, or The Moon is a Harsh Mistress, or works that don't happen to promote the values you like, it's fine not to like it, but I don't think people should act like it has no legitimate right to exist.
 
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