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The destruction of Romulus was an act of revenge by the Dominion

I bow to the greater wisdom of the mod. Just please, please stop claiming untrue things about what is on screen and what is not. That is, if you have any decency in you.

You really just don’t know when to quit, do you? I have better things to do with my time than argue pointlessly with a serial contrarian. So we’re done here.

I think there's some room for interpretation with the supernova sequence, considering that the depiction was part of Spock's trippy mind meld, and also considering that many of the space visuals in J.J. Abram's works don't make a lick of sense unless you look at them as stylized abstractions.

Except the sequence of events in the meld are exactly as Spock describes them. A star explodes. Romulus is threatened with destruction and either its people contact Spock for help or Spock contacts them. Spock then has the Vulcans build the Jellyfish and then pilots it toward the explosion which has now reached the vicinity of Romulus in an effort to release red matter into it to stop it from expanding. Then Romulus is destroyed. it’s pretty clear that the star had to be at least several light years away for the amount of time for all that to happen.
 
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By all means, leave. I'm not done (except perhaps with you once again). The subject matter itself still matters.

Although of course it will matter much more when we get the PIC angle of it. I doubt the visuals there will be much different in nature or level of ambiguity, but OTOH I think you are selling them short on the degree of information they try to convey and perhaps succeed in conveying. This is a visual medium, after all - the mind meld would fall quite flat without the fireworks.

Timo Saloniemi
 
So you choose 1.

See? It's that simple, ceasing to try 3. If you just could have done that before resorting to insults...

Timo Saloniemi
1. You’re the one making the insults, not me, which I’m sure you’re quite aware. The mod certainly is.

2. Said mod already told you to chill the fuck out with the insults or you’ll get a warning for flaming. I’d heed his warning if I were you.

3. The remnant of the unknown star’s explosion hit and destroyed Romulus, not the Romulan’s star itself. That’s where you’re confused.

LvnXmXp.gif


Mixer already told you. Now I'm telling you. Getting mad and insulting over a pretend space movie is dangerously low on the dignity scale.
 
@Dukhat: I guess it might have been a single cloaked ship or shuttle with a cloaking device, so no one could detect the hands of the founders in all of this.


And the thing about the scale of destruction might have been more about the political impact instead of blowing up large regions of the galaxy...

Getting back on topic, I still would like more evidence that the Hobus star’s destruction was premeditated. That the Dominion had the capability isn’t good enough for me. For that matter, the Federation and the Klingons have the capability too. Plus, if the Dominion was responsible, why didn’t they also detonate the Earth’s sun and Qo’nos’s sun too? Or Romulus’s sun, for that matter? Why some random star that threatens planets who weren’t the Dominion’s enemies along with those who were?
 
The Hobus star was special. The destruction of this particular star apparently threatened the whole galaxy for some reason, according to Spock. So in addition to the Romulan Empire, it would have engulfed Federation and Klingon space too. The Founders may have figured that if they can't have the Alpha/Beta quadrants, then nobody can!

Kor
 
The Founders may have figured that if they can't have the Alpha/Beta quadrants, then nobody can!

I suppose. But that seems highly counterproductive, since if the explosion threatens “the galaxy,” then the Gamma Quadrant would eventually be affected as well.
 
Then again, the idea that it would threaten the galaxy is (once again) at dire odds with what we see...

If Spock has time to basically build a ship in order to stop the kaboom from destroying its first-ever inhabited world, then the Founders would have time to modify an all-new slave species to deal with the destruction reaching their home turf!

I mean, let's be generous here. Say there's a Hobus and the wave travels for 50 lightyears before hitting any worlds Spock might feel sorry for. Say Spock takes just a hectic three days to outfit the ship, even when we see that ship torn down rather extensively, with hull panels missing and all. A week for a hundred lightyears, then. So some 500 weeks or a decade before the wave of hurt crosses the galaxy.

But that's the generous take. Fifty lightyears of uninhabited space in every direction of Hobus isn't exactly Star Trek. A small starship might be readied in days, but it this was worth doing at all (as opposed to using a preexisting ship as is), it might have been a demanding project taking weeks. So probably we have to multiply by ten twice to remain halfway plausible. In a thousand years, not only would there be plenty of opportunities to apply red matter (which in this model works well after the fact and at great distances from the source), but the whole thing might fizzle out on its own.

The other way to go is the no-Hobus model. But if Spock really outfits the ship after the kaboom at the Romulan homestar, then the wave propagates at a walking pace, and the Founders can evolve to noncorporeal superbeings in waiting for the day when they have to do something about it.

If in turn the ship is prepared in anticipation of the unpredictable kaboom, but again we follow the visuals and it's the nearest star that blows, then we get a "natural" propagation pace of up to lightspeed but probably less (see the visuals on the actual impact), and again any galactic-scale effects can wait for divine judgement from the distant ascended descendants of our heroes.

No matter how we choose our parameters, then, basically the only way to go galactic is to say that anything to do with Romulus always carries galactic consequences. And I guess we can grant Spock that much poetic license here.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Geordi built it, the VSA commissoned it, and they only upgraded it with red matter transport and ejection technology.
 
Remember also that the original plan for the movie and comic was wholesale annihilation of the Trekverse prior to Spock and Nero going back in time, and we have the Star Trek Online devs to thank for getting that downscaled to just Romulus since they'd spent all this money developing a game that was about to be made totally moot.

Think about that. Star Trek Online is why Star Trek: Picard can happen (at least without pulling a Terminator/Halloween/Highlander continuity reset)
 
Getting back on topic, I still would like more evidence that the Hobus star’s destruction was premeditated. That the Dominion had the capability isn’t good enough for me. For that matter, the Federation and the Klingons have the capability too. Plus, if the Dominion was responsible, why didn’t they also detonate the Earth’s sun and Qo’nos’s sun too? Or Romulus’s sun, for that matter? Why some random star that threatens planets who weren’t the Dominion’s enemies along with those who were?

I guess from the point of view of the Founders the Romulans may have been the biggest threat for them, with all the duplicity and insidiousness that they are known for.

Perhaps even Odo couldn't stop them from going after them, even through he may have been successful with convincing them to reconsider their relationship with the other solids.

And as DS9 showed, the Great Link already was able to hide things from Odo before. So he may have had no idea of what the Founders had planned, before it happened.
 
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Whoever blew up the star that killed Romulus may only have been getting started. Nero planned on serial planeticide; the killers of Romulus could have done the same, only on a grander scale, and perhaps achieved their goal in some timeline we don't yet know about.

Regarding Spock's odd little vessel, why was it needed? Why not use some random Akira or whatever?

1) The ship might need to fly through the wave of destruction in order to reach the supernova at the source. As the wave kills planets, then a very special ship might be needed. Spock does fire his red matter directly into what looks like the star rather than the wavefront, and the resulting black hole then consumes that star (and supposedly turns into the timehole where Spock and Nero soon fall).

We don't know what good this will do if the wavefront is already elsewhere, though. This is where the "there was no Hobus" model helps, as there would be little difference between the star and the wavefront yet. The expanding red matter effect could plausibly catch both with ease.

2) The ship might need to be superfast. After all, Spock does speak of it being the fastest "they" had.

But nothing indicates it would be exceptionally fast (Nero thinks he can chase it, and twice this turns out to be correct, even if in the latter case only because Spock is baiting him and deliberately crawling), and we lack any rationale for such a need. "Getting to the supernova fast" is inane as a rationale, since getting to places in the Kelvin movies in any random ship is superfast while outfitting a ship obviously is not. "Our fastest vessel" then might simply mean that Spock and his pals saw no sense in installing their gear in an inferior vessel, out of all the choices.

3) The ship might need to be compatible with red matter. After all, the stuff looks scary - and Nero makes no attempt to remove it from Spock's ship, settling instead for drawing out droplets for immediate use the way Spock did.

The downside here is merely the lack of technobabble to somehow connect the nature of the ship with the requirements of the red matter containment system. The fancy spinning section stops spinning when Spock lands aboard the Narada, yet the red matter doesn't hiccup. So which part of this ship is compatible with red matter containment where an Akira would not be, and why?

The workaround here is that Spock has a limited number of ships at his disposal, all of them inferior to the as such not particularly special Jellyfish. This would mean that Spock is a pariah, denied the use of Starfleet resources, and of most Vulcan resources, too. Essentially, he has to use a decrepit old VSA scooter either because nobody believes his tall tales about an upcoming supernova, or because nobody wants Romulus to be saved (by him, or in general).

Timo Saloniemi
 
Romulus was destroyed by the Hobus super nova, because of the Dominion taking a late revenge for the Cardassians and Romulans trying to exterminate the Founders in the DS9 episode "The Die Is Cast".

As the female founder said in "Broken Link: "Your people were doomed the moment they attacked us."

A major hint for this being the case is that the destruction of Romulus was caused by the same modus operandi as what the Bashir changeling planned to do with Bajor in "By Inferno's Light"...

Just no. Not everything needs to be tied together. The universe is small enough as it is.
 
I found the relevant clip in good quality:
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The planet we zoom past very quickly does look like Romulus, but whether it's meant to represent it or not is another matter.
Here's what the script (dated November 5, 2007) says:
pCmmuXr.jpg
 
I guess from the point of view of the Founders the Romulans may have been the biggest threat for them, with all the duplicity and insidiousness that they are known for.

Except the Federation was far more duplicitous and insidious with Section 31 creating a virus that almost killed all the Founders, and Sisko basically pulling a huge lie to get the Romulans to join the war effort. If anything, I would think that the Dominion would have been seeking revenge on them far more than the Romulans who didn’t even want to get involved in the war until they were duped into it.
 
I do feel we should be questioning the wisdom of taking visuals presented to us through the inexact science of a mind-meld too literally. Do we even know whether mind-melds traditionally include a visual component?

But to respond to the OP...while I've long suspected that the supernova was caused artificially, in part because of the FTL component, I've never suspected that The Dominion was responsible. Maybe I'm being too optimistic, but I like to interpret Odo's departure at the end of DS9 as a sign that things will eventually improve on that front, not degenerate to this extent.
 
I do feel we should be questioning the wisdom of taking visuals presented to us through the inexact science of a mind-meld too literally. Do we even know whether mind-melds traditionally include a visual component?

What we see in the mind meld isn’t actually relevant. It could very well be just a stylized version of the events. It’s what Spock describes that’s important. His chain of events has a lot of time passing between the Hobus star’s explosion and the supernova’s effects finally reaching Romulus.
 
Both a stream of visuals and a narration are all-new to a mind meld here. Previous melds had no imagery (the flashes in that one version of TUC notwithstanding), and the dialogue relating to them was fragmentary, the actual exposition coming after the meld was broken and the character had recovered enough to report on his findings to his colleagues in a coherent manner.

Here Spock shows and tells in a seemingly coherent manner, perhaps with the skill and experience of a veteran melder, perhaps because this is also our first-ever meld actually performed for the purposes of show and tell. Both halves of his presentation could be argued to be accurate, inaccurate, artistic or pedantic; there's little inherent difference between the two.

Except in the content, that is. The visuals describe a "natural" explosion of a star, a phenomenon of limited scope that gets stopped before it kills more than one star system. This matches exactly the premise that Spock would fall into the timehole of his own making, followed by Nero, since the timehole would be where the star blew, but also where Nero witnessed the loss of Romulus with his own eyes.

What it does not necessarily match is the idea that the explosion could endanger the galaxy (or, as Spock puts it in that inane comic, the universe). Also, the "I had little time" bit is left mysterious; is the destruction about to accelerate or escalate somehow after that "little time", and if so, how? Is it a case of the black hole being unable to suck back the wave of hurt if it gets farther out?

The verbal part in turn may be interpreted in ways that are different from the above. Or then in ways that are not. The visuals seem strictly causal: kaboom, expansion of said through the rubble field, loss of Romulus, Spock's delivering of the droplet of red matter, black hole and salvation. The narration may be causal or not. It seems to start with an introduction: "a star will explode". Is it a strictly causal story that describes this event in detail, but does not include the title line which in fact belongs in a slot within the narrative? Or is the title line already part of the causal chain?

The "little time" line gets even less justification if we assume the star first blows and the other events then follow. The destruction then is already lightyears from its source. What would a few (dozen/hundred/zillion) lightyears or minutes more matter?

But if we say that "a star will explore" is but the title for the story, then there is no contradiction between the two representations of the event, which ought to be an attractive option, right? Furthermore, it provides at least one theoretical out from the "little time" conundrum - that the super-duper black hole can suck back the hurt across a limited radius. And FWIW, it dovetails to the one salvageable bit of Countdown, the idea that the explosion was predicted in advance but Spock faced an uphill battle in doing anything about it - and perhaps involved Nero in that battle before the actual kablooie itself, too.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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Both a stream of visuals and a narration are all-new to a mind meld here. Previous melds had no imagery (the flashes in that one version of TUC notwithstanding), and the dialogue relating to them was fragmentary, the actual exposition coming after the meld was broken and the character had recovered enough to report on his findings to his colleagues in a coherent manner.

Timo Saloniemi
Soval's meld with the embassy survivor was full of images
 
Soval's meld with the embassy survivor was full of images
And IIRC, we see visuals when Tuvok mind melds with someone on Voyager. I think it was the episode Random Thoughts, with a society that bans dark thoughts, Tuvok meets with a deviant who wants dark thoughts, so Tuvok shares dark things he's seen via a meld, and we, the audience glimpse those things. Which, interestingly enough includes things Tuvok couldn't have possibly have seen like the Enterprise E crew fighting the Borg in First Contact.
 
Fuck, I knew I would miss something!

The thing about the Delta Vega meld is that it is not just the telling of a story for the benefit of the viewers - it is conducted in order to tell a story to Kirk, in-univese. I think that has never been done in Trek before: melds have extracted information, or dumped it in a chaotic manner, but no Vulcan has given a PowerPoint lecture using the technique.

So the rules of storytelling should apply to what we see and hear. But this should not give the visuals and the narration a different status, as both are part of the presentation, supposedly equally controlled by the narrator.

Incidentally, would Spock have seen what he showed? Did he see Romulus pulverized, or is he just painting that picture for Kirk's benefit? No doubt the latter is possible (and at the very least the viewing angles we see are obviously not Spock's!), also excusing Tuvok's picture-painting above.

Timo Saloniemi
 
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