The Design and Mission of the U.S.S. Titan Seems Inappropriate

[Sci]

In regards to the design of the Defiant...it did blow shit up real nice, but...ahem....got beat up real nice by the borg in First Contact...the very thing it was intended to defend against.

The Battle of Sector 001 was the first time that Starfleet had gotten the chance to engage in combat against the Borg since the Battle of Wolf 359. Wolf 359 led to all but one of the starships that confronted the Borg being destroyed; Sector 001, by contrast, was apparently a running battle between the cube and Starfleet that lasted several days (since we know the Romulan Neutral Zone, where the Enterprise was, is several days from Earth in 2373) and stretched across Federation space. And we know that the Defiant was there at the beginning of the battle, and that she survived until the very end. Sounds to me like the Defiant, and the rest of Starfleet, did very well and strongly improved their track-record.

 

[Christopher]

The Battle of Sector 001 ... was apparently a running battle between the cube and Starfleet that lasted several days (since we know the Romulan Neutral Zone, where the Enterprise was, is several days from Earth in 2373) and stretched across Federation space.

I know I'm the one who's pointed out that oddity in the past, but on second thought: is it actually explicit in FC that the E-E is at the Neutral Zone, or could it just be en route?

 

[Dayton Ward]

Well, Riker offers Picard a report detailing their survey/etc. of the Neutral Zone, though I suppose it could've been a preview/teaser trailer of things to come......

 

[Herbert1]

In regards to the design of the Defiant...it did blow shit up real nice, but...ahem....got beat up real nice by the borg in First Contact...the very thing it was intended to defend against.

The Battle of Sector 001 was the first time that Starfleet had gotten the chance to engage in combat against the Borg since the Battle of Wolf 359. Wolf 359 led to all but one of the starships that confronted the Borg being destroyed; Sector 001, by contrast, was apparently a running battle between the cube and Starfleet that lasted several days (since we know the Romulan Neutral Zone, where the Enterprise was, is several days from Earth in 2373) and stretched across Federation space. And we know that the Defiant was there at the beginning of the battle, and that she survived until the very end. Sounds to me like the Defiant, and the rest of Starfleet, did very well and strongly improved their track-record.

Sisko explicitly said that the Defiant was the prototype of a proposed fleet of ships designed to defeat the Borg. It was never stated that a single Defiant-class starship could defeat a Borg cube.

 

[hellsgate]

I agree. It seems odd that Starfleet Command would do anything beyond trying to recover its tactical footing with kitbashes of Wolf 359 & Dominion War losses (Defiant's, Sovereign-Class, Intrepid-Class, Steamrunner, Norway-Class, etc.), until such time as brand-new (traditionally lesser armed) "exploration" ships are feasible a few years later. (Ambassadors, Constitution-Class, Constellation-Class, Miranda, Oberth & Nova-Class.) Doing the opposite doesn't make sense. Cover your ass, if you're going to be waving it in the neighbors' faces.

 

[Christopher]

^^Again, the question is, why assume they have to do only one or the other instead of both at once? It's a big Federation with a lot of shipbuilding facilities. And I've already explained why investing in exploration does contribute to the Federation's security and recovery, so it's narrow-minded to think the focus should be on warships alone. National security is about a lot more than just weapons.

 

[terpette]

I disagree with that bit of logic. Because aside from the Defiant class of ships Starfleet never had "warships."

Well... my local fanclub rocks out the three-nacelled Galaxy-class ship from the TNG finale, which is sort of a warship. I forget the actual name of the class... I'd refer to my website in my sig, but we got hacked several months ago and I haven't had time to get things back together.

But technically, that's from an alternative timeline, so... YMMV.

Karen

 

[Christopher]

Well... my local fanclub rocks out the three-nacelled Galaxy-class ship from the TNG finale, which is sort of a warship.

I doubt that. The Galaxy Class is a multifunction vessel that's primarily an explorer; I don't see how adding another nacelle and a few extra phaser thingies would strip away every possible function for the ship other than warfare. Just because a ship is more heavily equipped for combat doesn't mean it ceases to be a multipurpose vessel.

Heck, if it had been refitted into an exclusive combat vessel, then presumably they would've ditched the saucer.

 

[Braxton]

90% of all ships in Starfleet are designed to be multi-purpose starships. They have several designs that are mainly science or medical and thus have weak offensive capabilities because of this. A ship like the Luna-class is designed to be a ship of exploration as well as be a warship, not designing in such a way would be disastrous. The Federation puts an emphasis on peaceful exploration but their ships are more than capable of defending themselves so they are not being 'inappropriate' in building the Luna-class. It can double as a warship. They just don't like saying their ships are warships too.

 

[Dayton3]

Perhaps not.

But I doubt that enemies of the U.S. today would be intimidated by our Olympic medal count or a good year for Nobel prizes.

 

[William Leisner]

National security is about a lot more than just weapons.

Perhaps not.

But I doubt that enemies of the U.S. today would be intimidated by our Olympic medal count or a good year for Nobel prizes.

Yes, because "national security" = "intimidating foreigners".

 

[Dayton Ward]

National security is about a lot more than just weapons.

Perhaps not.

But I doubt that enemies of the U.S. today would be intimidated by our Olympic medal count or a good year for Nobel prizes.

None of which has anything to do with the premise of Star Trek: Titan and the primary mission of its hero ship: Exploring strange new worlds, yadda yadda yadda. There's almost certainly an effort underway to get ready for the next big bad guy, but that's somebody else's job. It was always somebody else's job, off-camera, out of sight and out of mind.

 

[Christopher]

A ship like the Luna-class is designed to be a ship of exploration as well as be a warship, not designing in such a way would be disastrous. The Federation puts an emphasis on peaceful exploration but their ships are more than capable of defending themselves so they are not being 'inappropriate' in building the Luna-class. It can double as a warship. They just don't like saying their ships are warships too.

I think there's a difference between a ship that can defend itself and a "warship." I mean, presumably a "warship" is a ship intended to wage war. War is more than just the occasional combat in self-defense. War is a formal, ongoing state of conflict between nations. Maybe I'm just taking it too literally, but I just don't think the term "warship" applies to the Luna Class, because its armaments are intended to defend the ship, not to start or participate in actual wars. After all, a Luna-class ship is out there alone, and a single ship can't wage a war against a whole civilization. Any combat it got engaged in would be an isolated incident, not an actual war.

 

[Braxton]

A ship like the Luna-class is designed to be a ship of exploration as well as be a warship, not designing in such a way would be disastrous. The Federation puts an emphasis on peaceful exploration but their ships are more than capable of defending themselves so they are not being 'inappropriate' in building the Luna-class. It can double as a warship. They just don't like saying their ships are warships too.

I think there's a difference between a ship that can defend itself and a "warship." I mean, presumably a "warship" is a ship intended to wage war. War is more than just the occasional combat in self-defense. War is a formal, ongoing state of conflict between nations. Maybe I'm just taking it too literally, but I just don't think the term "warship" applies to the Luna Class, because its armaments are intended to defend the ship, not to start or participate in actual wars. After all, a Luna-class ship is out there alone, and a single ship can't wage a war against a whole civilization. Any combat it got engaged in would be an isolated incident, not an actual war.

I'm only saying that Starfleet is building ships that have multiple roles. The Defiant is Starfleets first 'warship' but they don't even call it that, they call it an 'escort'. Starfleet plays to the pacificist side while also building ships that are lethal when they need to be.

 

[Christopher]

^^I don't think it's "pacifist" to say that "warship" is an inappropriate name. After all, there's a big middle ground between pacifism and actual war. If, say, your ship is attacked and you destroy the attacker, that's a battle, but it's not a war. If your ship hunts down a pirate vessel and defeats it in combat, that's a battle, but it's still not a war. Wouldn't it make more sense to call the Defiant a battleship or a combat vessel than a warship?

 

[Sci]

National security is about a lot more than just weapons.

Perhaps not.

Um, no. National security is about a lot more than just weapons; Christopher is right. Don't believe me? Just consider the terrorist plot to hijack trans-Atlantic aircraft the British busted up a few years ago. Were it not for our diplomatic relationship with the United Kingdom, we would have been made vulnerable and American citizens would have died. Or, hell, consider that on 9/11, it was Canada that saved thousands of American lives by taking in all incoming trans-Atlantic and trans-Pacific flights after the FAA shut down American airspace.

Having friends and partners means someone's got your back in a fight. That's true of real life, and that's true of geopolitics, and that's true of astropolitics.

But I doubt that enemies of the U.S. today would be intimidated by our Olympic medal count or a good year for Nobel prizes.

No. But the last eight years of a foreign policy that sees national security solely through the eyes of military capacity should nicely demonstrate how a foreign policy based on reaching out to others as friends and partners in conjunction with a strong military does more to make a culture secure than just one or the other.

 

[hellsgate]

Well... my local fanclub rocks out the three-nacelled Galaxy-class ship from the TNG finale, which is sort of a warship. I forget the actual name of the class... I'd refer to my website in my sig, but we got hacked several months ago and I haven't had time to get things back together.

But technically, that's from an alternative timeline, so... YMMV.

Terpette:

The tri-nacelle Galaxy-Class variant is often referred to as the "ENTENTE-CLASS" or "Galaxy X-Class" in fan fiction & RPG's.

 

[Geoff Thorne]

The purpose of the Luna class ships like the U.S.S. Titan was said to be something along the lines of

"after the Dominion War, Starfleet sought to return to exploration" or something like that IIRC.

It has always struck me that was very inappropriate.

More likely ships being built in the immediate aftermath of the Dominion War would be warships. Because Starfleet would be interested in replacing losses suffered in the fighting.

I would think that it would be 5-10 years before Starfleet really started reemphasizing exploration and the vessels for it.

Read my sig. It's the best explanation.

 

[Dayton3]

The purpose of the Luna class ships like the U.S.S. Titan was said to be something along the lines of

"after the Dominion War, Starfleet sought to return to exploration" or something like that IIRC.

It has always struck me that was very inappropriate.

More likely ships being built in the immediate aftermath of the Dominion War would be warships. Because Starfleet would be interested in replacing losses suffered in the fighting.

I would think that it would be 5-10 years before Starfleet really started reemphasizing exploration and the vessels for it.

Read my sig. It's the best explanation.

And we all know that is bull.

Organizations whose primary purpose is exploration doesn't arm its vessels with enough weapons to wipe out a planet.

In case you noticed, NASA doesn't launch each space shuttle with a couple nuclear warheads for use "just in case".

 

[Marie1]

They need to protect themselves and their crews. Its only a coincidence that the weapons needed to take out an enemy ship's shields, weapons and engines and more if necessary are also able to cause that much damage to a planet. That isn't their intent.