The Design and Mission of the U.S.S. Titan Seems Inappropriate

[Dayton3]

The purpose of the Luna class ships like the U.S.S. Titan was said to be something along the lines of

"after the Dominion War, Starfleet sought to return to exploration" or something like that IIRC.

It has always struck me that was very inappropriate.

More likely ships being built in the immediate aftermath of the Dominion War would be warships. Because Starfleet would be interested in replacing losses suffered in the fighting.

I would think that it would be 5-10 years before Starfleet really started reemphasizing exploration and the vessels for it.

 

[EmperorKalan]

The purpose of the Luna class ships like the U.S.S. Titan was said to be something along the lines of

"after the Dominion War, Starfleet sought to return to exploration" or something like that IIRC.

It has always struck me that was very inappropriate.

More likely ships being built in the immediate aftermath of the Dominion War would be warships. Because Starfleet would be interested in replacing losses suffered in the fighting.

I would think that it would be 5-10 years before Starfleet really started reemphasizing exploration and the vessels for it.

I guess the short answer is that they disagreed with you.

"They" being (in-universe) Starfleet Command and (real world) the line editors at Pocket.

 

[LightningStorm]

More likely ships being built in the immediate aftermath of the Dominion War would be warships. Because Starfleet would be interested in replacing losses suffered in the fighting.

I disagree with that bit of logic. Because aside from the Defiant class of ships Starfleet never had "warships." While I do think they'd be interested in recovering from their losses, I think one of their primary losses was that they had lost the ability to do the thing they set out to do: Explore. So while Titan and exploration is the part of Starfleet that we happen to have a book line about, thinking 'in-universe' I'm fairly certain there are plenty of other ships and ship classes dedicated to other tasks.

 

[Thrawn]

Well, and the War ends in 2375, and Titan launches at the end of 2379, so that's already almost 5 years. I don't understand your problem.

 

[Dayton3]

Well, and the War ends in 2375, and Titan launches at the end of 2379, so that's already almost 5 years. I don't understand your problem.

Ships take years to build. Years more to design.

The Luna class was almost certainly still in the design stage while the war was going on.

 

[Christopher]

The purpose of the Luna class ships like the U.S.S. Titan was said to be something along the lines of

"after the Dominion War, Starfleet sought to return to exploration" or something like that IIRC.

It has always struck me that was very inappropriate.

More likely ships being built in the immediate aftermath of the Dominion War would be warships. Because Starfleet would be interested in replacing losses suffered in the fighting.

Here's one fundamental flaw in your logic:

Why assume it has to be one or the other? Why assume the Luna Class is the only one that was developed after the war? Obviously Starfleet's going to be rebuilding its defenses; that's so inevitable that it doesn't need to be pointed out. But a civilization needs more than military strength in order to survive. It needs to hold onto the principles it stands for.

Which leads to another fundamental flaw in your logic:

By your argument, it was "inappropriate" for the United States to invest in the Marshall Plan after WWII -- why spend all that money helping other nations, including our former enemies, rebuild when we could've spent it on building more ships and bombs to replace the ones we lost in the war? But history shows that it was very appropriate. By helping other nations rebuild, by investing in America's principles of peace and cooperation rather than investing solely in military strength, we strengthened our alliances, turned former enemies into new allies, and helped repair the economy and security of the broader world, which helped improve our economy and security as well.

The Luna-Class exploration project isn't just about abstract scientific knowledge, though that's important too. It's about diplomatic outreach, about investment in good relations with neighboring civilizations, about reaffirming that the Federation is not a warlike state that its neighbors have to fear and attack. It does promote the Federation's security.

Also there's the economic consideration. The UFP may not have money, but that doesn't mean it lacks an economy, in the sense of an organized system for the allocation and distribution of resources and labor. A lot of the Federation's resources and labor clearly go into science, exploration, and colonization -- after all, there's not much else that people need to do for a living in a replicator economy. Just imagine how many people back home must devote their careers to analyzing the discoveries made by Starfleet explorers, to developing applications for alien technology, to arranging tourism and trade with newly contacted worlds, to settling or terraforming uninhabited planets, etc. etc. So promoting exploration promotes the UFP's economic recovery.

 

[Dayton3]

^I see that you've adopted the Michael Piller concept of "the replicator is a miracle machine that can satisfy any material desire at no cost".

I did not like Piller as a writer (The Best of Both Worlds notwithstanding) and I like him even less as a futurist or economist.

 

[Trent Roman]

The Luna-class was, indeed, in the conceptual phases before the War, originally planned to explore the Gamma Quadrant through the Bajoran Wormhole. The plans to build the ships got shelved by the Dominion War, and then brought back after the war's end.

Why no gap after the war? Setting aside our known disagreement about the militarism of Starfleet, as you say, ships take a while to build and design, and these had already been designed - they just needed to be built. If they needed to replenish fleet numbers, might as well start building the advanced designs you already have instead of waiting for others to be conceptualized from scratch.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

 

[Dayton3]

The Luna-class was, indeed, in the conceptual phases before the War, originally planned to explore the Gamma Quadrant through the Bajoran Wormhole. The plans to build the ships got shelved by the Dominion War, and then brought back after the war's end.

Why no gap after the war? Setting aside our known disagreement about the militarism of Starfleet, as you say, ships take a while to build and design, and these had already been designed - they just needed to be built. If they needed to replenish fleet numbers, might as well start building the advanced designs you already have instead of waiting for others to be conceptualized from scratch.

Fictitiously yours, Trent Roman

Actually Trent that does make a considerable amount of sense.

A design placed on hiatus due to the war but restarted after the end of the war.

Kind of like the television being invented prior to WWII but only coming into mass production after the war ended and resources were reallocated in the private industry.

 

[Herbert1]

The purpose of the Luna class ships like the U.S.S. Titan was said to be something along the lines of

"after the Dominion War, Starfleet sought to return to exploration" or something like that IIRC.

It has always struck me that was very inappropriate.

More likely ships being built in the immediate aftermath of the Dominion War would be warships. Because Starfleet would be interested in replacing losses suffered in the fighting.

I would think that it would be 5-10 years before Starfleet really started reemphasizing exploration and the vessels for it.

But your premise is absolute. The orthographic drawings mention only a class of 12 starships. It didn't say that all shipyards in the United Federation of Planets were producing explorers for exploration missions.

It could be that other shipyards were producing other classes of starships for the defense and the security of the United Federation of Planets or for other missions.

In addition, although the Galaxy-class was an explorer starship on an exploration mission it was certainly capable of defense and security missions and it was used extensively during the Dominon War.

By your statement, you also presume that the Luna-class cannot be used for security or in the defense of Federation assets.

But a distinction also needs to made between a Starfleet that can maintain the security of the United Federation of Planets and one that can prosecute a war across two quadrants.

Do you have historical evidence to support your position? For example, did the United States Navy embark on a large ship building program to replace the losses from the Pacific and Atlantic theatres after World War II?

 

[Sci]

I think that the development of the Luna-class starship class is entirely appropriate. And so's the development of new, defense-oriented ships along the lines of the Defiant class.

 

[William Leisner]

If the Luna-class seems inappropriate, then isn't the Defiant ridiculous? I mean, that ship was supposedly designed to fight the Borg, who were first encountered on the far end of the galaxy in 2364 first confirmed in the Alpha Quadrant in 2366... and yet somehow, there's a working prototype by early 2371. And while the Luna-class was not dependent on new technologies in order to explore, the Defiant needed to be a quantum leap beyond the defensive and offensive capabilities that proved as effective as tissue paper at Wolf 359.

But, since the Defiant was created to blow shit up real pretty-like, we can let that pass...

 

[Herbert1]

If the Luna-class seems inappropriate, then isn't the Defiant ridiculous? I mean, that ship was supposedly designed to fight the Borg, who were first encountered on the far end of the galaxy in 2364 first confirmed in the Alpha Quadrant in 2366... and yet somehow, there's a working prototype by early 2371. And while the Luna-class was not dependent on new technologies in order to explore, the Defiant needed to be a quantum leap beyond the defensive and offensive capabilities that proved as effective as tissue paper at Wolf 359.

But, since the Defiant was created to blow shit up real pretty-like, we can let that pass...

But the presumption is also that the Luna-class cannot blow shit up real pretty-like. No one said that the Luna-class was unarmed.

Further, why do some of us presume that the Galaxy-class is such a powerful war fighter because of its bigger mass? Its big so therefore its powerful? That class, like the Luna, was optimized for exploration. Bigger doesn't necessarily mean more powerful or more offensive capability.

My feeling about the Defiant-class was that it could be produced in greater numbers in less time than an explorer type ship, such as the Galaxy-class. Further, nothing was said that the offensive and defensive systems of the Defiant couldn't be made to work on other starship classes.

 

[Strider]

Do you have historical evidence to support your position? For example, did the United States Navy embark on a large ship building program to replace the losses from the Pacific and Atlantic theatres after World War II?

In fairness, United States military spending was pretty high after World War 2. And for much the same reason that you would expect in the post-Dominion War Federation: a major war leading to a new balance of power and competition between the major powers.

I would expect Starfleet to spend a lot of resources developing warships, or at least multi-mission ships like the Sovereign-class, to counter the Romulans, Klingons, and Borg. That said, there are plenty of reasons already given that Starfleet might dedicate 12 ships out of thousands to exploration.

This link from Wikipedia shows a list of research vessels by country: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_research_vessels_by_country
If the current United States Navy can support that many research vessels on this one little planet, then I think Starfleet can justify building a handful of research ships to cover an entire galaxy.

 

[nx1701g]

^ I always find it interesting that in the UK Navy the Enterprise is a survey vessel.

 

[BryanSorensen]

In regards to the design of the Defiant...it did blow shit up real nice, but...ahem....got beat up real nice by the borg in First Contact...the very thing it was intended to defend against. Designing a ship for a certain task or nature doesn't necessarily mean that it will be effective on that intended design.
In regards to other classes...i forget exactly where i read that the Sovereign Class was in the design stage during the battle of wolf 359, so was that class a design against the borg or a warship? perhaps a little of both. The Luna Class, while being primarily a ship of science and exploration(much like the Nebula Class was if i recall) can be effective in that task.

I have always thought that; and the characters Malcom Reed and Travie Mayweather had this talk in a very early episodeof Enterprise; while exploration is the primary objective, one needs to protect and defend in the best manner possible.

The Intrepid Class is another example. Starfleet obviously hadn't intended any of their ships to get stuck in the Delta Quadrant with out the means of support from anything in the Federation; but i think that Voyager held her own for seven years; with a little imagination on her crews part, but still did it. As a warship it may have lacked a little, but i think it went way beyond its intended design and designated mission.

As far as warships are concerned....Would the Prometheus Class, Sabre Class and Steamrunner Class of starships fit into that category as well as the Defiant? I would say a ship that can split into three smaller ships and has a "multivector assault mode" would classify it as a warship.

The Sabre class and Steamrunner Classes i had read were specifically designed in an answer to the Dominions seemingly endless supply of small attack ships.
If any of that all made sense, cool....

So here's my response to the original post in this thread....the fact that the Luna class was designed for exploration when they shoulda been designing and building warships, kinda goes against what i think Starfleet is all about.

Did the Luna Class necessarily NEED to be made and produced and set out for what they were intended for? maybe maybe not...who knows if somewhere there are more aptly named warships being built. we just havent seen them yet.

 

[JNG]

I have no particular reason to think that Starfleet ever built "warships" aside from the failed Defiant project or would have any plans to do so in future, nor to think that the large multimission starships are any less capable of carrying out missions to defend the Federation than they are of carrying out missions of exploration and scientific research. Nothing except the Defiant was ever stated to have departed from Starfleet's ideals and mission profiles this way, and it's all fanwank from 13-year-olds stating that this or that ship "was designed to fight the _______" when the registries, design elements and the amount of time it takes to build a ship always always rule this BS out anyway.

 

[Marie1]

Worf said that adopting a siege mentality, even if war was on the horizon, was self-defeating. And I agree with him. The Federation likes to learn, explore, meet new people... "network" if you will...

It should have "teeth" to defend itself, there's no shortage of hostile races out there... but you can't go to first contact meeting in planetary destroyer with... whatever. Making ships that can protect themselves but mainly for exploration is, imho, the best course... and have the defense ships waiting in the wings (maybe with slipstream drives for deployment quickly to the exploring ships far out?)

 

[Christopher]

^I see that you've adopted the Michael Piller concept of "the replicator is a miracle machine that can satisfy any material desire at no cost".

I did not like Piller as a writer (The Best of Both Worlds notwithstanding) and I like him even less as a futurist or economist.

First off, I'm not surprised you dislike Piller, since he was a writer who valued character above all.

Second, the concept of a "universal assembler" technology resulting in a post-scarcity economy does not originate with Piller; it can be found in much science fiction and futurism. Aside from that, the concept that the 24th-century Federation is free from material want and dedicated to learning and personal enrichment was established in TNG's first season, well before Piller joined the staff.

Third, I find it amusing that the only point of my argument that you challenged was a minor sidebar issue. I guess that means you're conceding that I've successfully refuted your original premise. My work here is done...

 

[Strider]

In regards to the design of the Defiant...it did blow shit up real nice, but...ahem....got beat up real nice by the borg in First Contact...the very thing it was intended to defend against. Designing a ship for a certain task or nature doesn't necessarily mean that it will be effective on that intended design.

Saying that the Defiant-class was purpose built to fight the Borg doesn't mean that a single Defiant-class ship should be expected to take a Borg cube on its own. It just means that the Defiant was designed primarily to be effective in combat against the Borg. This would influence everything from the size and profile of the Defiant-class to the crew complement, weapons, shields, and so on. You would expect to have multiple Defiants engaging the Borg. Just think "specially outfitted" as opposed to "silver bullet". "Specially designed" gets this almost comic book connotation that doesn't need to be there.

Wolf 359 showed the folly of sending large, moderately-armed ships against the Borg, so Starfleet would want to go smaller and better armed. And judging from the movie, the Borg hardly have a difficult time killing Starfleet ships, regardless of size. When you compare the Defiant's standard crew of 40 against the Galaxy's crew of 1000+, you can crew 25 Defiants for one Galaxy and probably get way more firepower for your buck. Each Defiant would be more expendable and if you lose a dozen you still have dozens more.

You probably only saw one in First Contact because having more would be confusing to the audience. That said, the single Defiant we saw seemed to be tearing into the Borg pretty well, so it wasn't a complete failure.