Why would I forget one of the most badass moments in Star Trek?
The Delta Flyers now covering DS9
- Thread starter Tinker Garak Soldier Spy
- Start date
Did he use the words "so far?" No, he did not. According to the quote, he actually says "only." So he either was making a mistake or he should have been much more clear. Still calling it an error on his part and a glorious victory for me.I think you might need to read that quote again.Like I pointed out, Garrett is remarking that it's the only two-parter with different titles SO FAR, because his comments are always from the perspective of so far. He's not saying this is "the only two partER IN THE series" that has different titles, he's referring to the episodes as a "two part series." He's not making any statement about future events at all here.
Meh. There are worse episodes. It's not great, but not awful. But, for once, the Delta Flyers hosts actually point out legitimate flaws in the storytelling on that one, instead of getting things hilariously wrong. So, good on them.
If it says "to be continued" at the end, it's a two-parter. End of story.
Good point!
I like Paradise. 
Especially if it's one where if you were to skip the "Previously On..." you would have no idea what the hell is going on.
Homefront/Paradise Lost are a fantastic 2-parter. In a weird way it's refreshing to see Earth. Political drama is a genre that lends itself well to the franchise. Plus we get a space battle between 2 starfleet ships.
These episodes also have consequences that ripple throughout the series. For all we know Leyton may have been aware of the morphogenic virus plot and been complicit in it. Little red squad shit gets killed along with the rest of them so they get what they deserve. Jaresh-Inyo fails to get re-elected presumably because of this.
These episodes also have consequences that ripple throughout the series. For all we know Leyton may have been aware of the morphogenic virus plot and been complicit in it. Little red squad shit gets killed along with the rest of them so they get what they deserve. Jaresh-Inyo fails to get re-elected presumably because of this.
It is a seminal DS9 two-parter and one of the key points in the series. I slogged through the commentaries, thankfully Terry elevated the energy for Paradise Lost even though she was overly critical too. Garrett, at one point, after seeing how high the audience appreciation score was, “Are we being too critical?” Um, no shit. It’s dampened my enthusiasm for continuing to tune in. Robbie was being particularly annoying because I was seeing a kind of superior and condescending side to him. Even though the two-parter was flawed and hampered by budgetary limitations, Voyager could only ever dream of delivering such meaningful and intelligent drama, characterisation, continuity of narrative and genuine heart.
So true. Since Robbie gave the two-parter a 4 and then a 6, if he were to be internally consistent, then the scores of 90% of the Voyager episodes they reviewed should range from a zero to a 2.
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Against my better judgement, I listened to the (free) coverage of Paradise Lost. The waves aren't moving. Sisko drinks milk? Colm Meaney is a dud? Why holster a phaser? So much concern trolling over minutiae. But what really gor me was their obsession with the lack of visuals to match the story's ambition. I get that they didn't have the money, but FFS, Robbie, a director and producer, actually says he can't visualize the story without it being put out in front of him. WTF? Isn't your job to see the visuals in the words on the page?
ETA: he also made a bone-headed comment about actors' pay. He said they should have brought back Shepard in place of O'BRIEN. OK, but then he said it would be cheaper? How? That's probably another day to pay the actor.
ETA: he also made a bone-headed comment about actors' pay. He said they should have brought back Shepard in place of O'BRIEN. OK, but then he said it would be cheaper? How? That's probably another day to pay the actor.
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Yeah, I just don’t get some of the dumb takes on this episode. Robbie directed some 90’s Trek and just surely have been aware of budgetary constraints and concessions. Back then, even an episode set on Earth will be lucky to have a little location work and a couple of new sets and there’s certainly not going to be an army of extras. I was watching on Patreon and one of the questioners praised the writing and acting of the episode at which point Robbie screwed his face and waved his hand. He and Armin had been complaining about Avery, but Avery actually held the episode together nicely with a solid and compelling performance.
Some of the other complaints showed they didn’t fully pay attention to the episode (they didn’t understand that Lt Ariaga had been responsible for “rigging” the wormhole to open) and they seemed to think that Leighton had the Red Squad cadets executed!? The suggestion that the cadet Shepherd actor should have played the Changeling is also really dumb—because, quite obviously, Colm Meaney was a much better actor than that kid, and he did a great job too.
Not quite sure I want to listen to this weeks!
Some of the other complaints showed they didn’t fully pay attention to the episode (they didn’t understand that Lt Ariaga had been responsible for “rigging” the wormhole to open) and they seemed to think that Leighton had the Red Squad cadets executed!? The suggestion that the cadet Shepherd actor should have played the Changeling is also really dumb—because, quite obviously, Colm Meaney was a much better actor than that kid, and he did a great job too.
Not quite sure I want to listen to this weeks!
I wonder if being unwilling, unable, or uncomfortable critiquing the ideas of the episode, the budget became the focus. A lot of the hem and haw seems to be that the lack of money prevented sense of danger to be manifested. Not enough extras, not enough morphs, not enough pew pew. The fact that the writers noted the lack of budget made this an easy critique, thus it was something that the Delta Flyers gang picked up with gusto. Where I think they go astray is assuming is that because the budget wasn't there to create the spectacle, nothing in the episode resonated. Everything Sisko does might as well be hyperbole.
That’s just it. The themes of the episode/s and the parallels with what’s gone on in the world since then would make for an absolutely fascinating and provocative discussion. They just didn’t wanna go there I guess.
I started watching the “Crossfire” commentary and both Garrett and Armin have dismissed it as a “soap opera” with all the pejorative the term implies. I always saw it as a rather lovely little character drama with a stunning performance by Rene Auberjonois. (Not a fan of Shakaar and Kira though). I don’t know if I can listen to any more whinging so wondering if I should just unsubscribe.
I started watching the “Crossfire” commentary and both Garrett and Armin have dismissed it as a “soap opera” with all the pejorative the term implies. I always saw it as a rather lovely little character drama with a stunning performance by Rene Auberjonois. (Not a fan of Shakaar and Kira though). I don’t know if I can listen to any more whinging so wondering if I should just unsubscribe.
Ugh. I'm about 20 minutes into Crossfire and it's an absymal episode with horrible commentary from the regulars.
The reason why someone called Ds9 a "soap opera" to Garrett at that con was because of its ongoing serialized storylines, not because of perceived melodramatic romantic plot machinations. Dude, you should know this.
And, yeah, they are deeply dismissive of Crossfire, which happens to be a personal favorite of mine.
As someone who suffered through two significant unrequited loves in my life, I have never identified with a Star Trek episode more. It's a terrific character study/drama anchored by an amazing performance by Rene.
But Robbie seems baffled by the fact that it doesn't have a "science fiction" conceit and even goes as far as to quote from an unnamed "writing book" about what the definition of sci-fi is. (A definition, which, btw, isn't remotely close to the actual accepted, textbook definition is.)
Hey, geniuses. Have you been paying attention? Vast swaths of all Star Trek have never actually been sci-fi (beyond the surface-level trappings and setting.) Especially DS9. DS9 has maybe one or two "sci-fi" episodes in it in a given season. It's just a drama with science fiction dressing.
Maybe pay attention and chart what show you're actually watching.
I don't want to finish the episode and, honestly, I've felt that a lot lately. Particularly with Armin episodes, although he's far from the worst in this particular instance.
Bleh!
Look, even when the episode aired, I thought it was laughable that literally the only visual we get of "Earth being secured" under Leyton's control was two measly security officers being down across the restaurant.
But, but, but....on a story and thematic level, the episode is deeply rich and compelling and sometimes you just gotta ignore the seams along the edges and just get swept along in the storytelling, which was quality.
But way, way too often, the Delta Flyers get hung up on insanely petty details. In this case, those details were more obvious, but that doesn't mean they should derail the entire conversation or should impact their opinion on an episode to that degree. Usually it's only Armin who is quite so pedantic, but the Robbie and Garrett are catching up.
Delta Flyers are not the only ones who bring up the critique that the episode lacked scale. The Mission Log, a podcast that often critiques DS9 for not modeling ethical behavior, thought the episode lacked things to bring the sense of jeopardy to the viewer. They did make a critique that I thought was very questionable: Jaresh Inyo should have done something to provoke Leyton, which I think is BS. Nonetheless, they looked at the story on its merits in a way Delta Flyers did not, lauding the ethical ambitions, but saying they were too much. Robbie and Garrett wanted to dismiss everything, and I think the only reason they didn't go after Robert Foxforth was Armin praised his career in the first half.
He did. He absolutely did. By being too passive and by not reacting with the severity and urgency Leyton thought appropriate, Jaresh Inyo absolutely did "something" to provoke him.
That's literally the point of the episode and any more would not only be superfluous but could torpedo the episode's themes.
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Yeah Crossfire is a struggle so far. I don't like the episode particularly but dismissing it as not sci-fi enough or too soapy really misunderstands DS9 entirely.
It's not an anomaly or alien of the week show with cardboard characters who hardly ever change or develop, naming no names there, but a drama series set on a space station telling ongoing storylines, which embraces a variety of genres and develops its characters.
It's not an anomaly or alien of the week show with cardboard characters who hardly ever change or develop, naming no names there, but a drama series set on a space station telling ongoing storylines, which embraces a variety of genres and develops its characters.
So I finally caught up to the DS9 episodes of the Delta Flyers and I can already see why Armin is getting a bit of flack.
Near the end of their review of Emissary Armin was questioning why the station needed shields if it was only an ore processing facility.
Near the end of their review of Emissary Armin was questioning why the station needed shields if it was only an ore processing facility.