The Delta Flyers now covering DS9

[Crewman6]

I was wondering if anyone was still listening. Funny, Improbable Cause is peak season three.

I'm still listening, but as I said in my previous comment, I'm getting really sick and tired of Armin.

He's just so relentlessly fucking stupid it often defies belief.

For someone who is such a "theater" veteran, it's amazing how often he doesn't understand simple dramatics.

For someone with a lengthy TV resume, he often seems to have no clue how TV shows actually work and how you have to sometimes have a few compromises when you're making a show.

For instance, while he's technically correct that Major Kira, as a Bajoran officer, has no need to go on Defiant-centric missions, she's still a series regular so the show is going to use her. He brings this up frequently and is one of about a hundred or so examples of his small-minded pedantry.

I have oft thought of coming to this board after listening to an episode to write an angry screen listing all of Armin's boneheaded comments of the week, but then realized I would rather just get on with my life. But check out the review of Defiant if you want to hear Armin at his arguable worst.

And in the "Way of the Warrior" episode, he's at it again, misunderstanding how the Prime Directive works (a frequent error), among other sins.

I have come to vastly, vastly prefer the Terry episodes. She is such a warm presence compared to his insane cranky nitpickery there's just no contest between them.

I also really liked Chase Masterson's recent guest appearance, even though she was only in her debut episode (Explorers) for one scene.

But, man, if Armin suddenly decided to quit, I'd rejoice.

 

[VDCNI]

I do think he has some nice insights, he seems to have a better memory of the people involved and gives good criticism in places.

But when he gets pedantic he's so frustrating, I feel like screaming. The Prime Directive thing in Way Of The Warrior is painful. He so confidently gets it wrong over and over.

 

[Crewman6]

I do think he has some nice insights, he seems to have a better memory of the people involved and gives good criticism in places.

But when he gets pedantic he's so frustrating, I feel like screaming. The Prime Directive thing in Way Of The Warrior is painful. He so confidently gets it wrong over and over.

Good point. It's the confidence in his wrongness that makes it all the worse.

He does have good insights from time to time and I do find myself occasionally agreeing with an interesting opinion or a well-earned critique.

But, at this point, it really just feels like a stopped clock being right twice a day, as the nitpicking and the flat-out WRONG nitpicking is overwhelming.

 

[Sakonna]

Personally I don't mind Armin's nitpicking, even when it's wrong, because he has a sense of humor about it. The others are always teasing him over it, and he pokes fun at himself as well. For me the self-awareness takes it from potentially annoying to endearing.

Weeks later, I am still stunned he didn't love "Family Business"! He's usually so high on the Ferengi episodes (appropriately so, I think committing to it is part of what makes the Quark performance so good). "Family Business" is one of my Ferengi favs, so I was so thrown he didn't care for it.

 

[Crewman6]

Personally I don't mind Armin's nitpicking, even when it's wrong, because he has a sense of humor about it. The others are always teasing him over it, and he pokes fun at himself as well. For me the self-awareness takes it from potentially annoying to endearing.

I actually disagree that he has self-awareness about it and even the "sense of humor" about it feels, well, a bit arrogant. He's convinced he's correct, he doesn't do it with tongue-in-cheek (ever!) and is assured that everyone else is stupid/made a mistake and only he is smart enough to realize it.

Sure, he "jokes" about his nitpicks, but the jokes are always directed at the perceived error in the episode, not at himself. He will occasionally make comments like, "Here I go again with the nitpicks", but that isn't actually self-deprecating at all.

It's quite insufferable.

Weeks later, I am still stunned he didn't love "Family Business"! He's usually so high on the Ferengi episodes (appropriately so, I think committing to it is part of what makes the Quark performance so good). "Family Business" is one of my Ferengi favs, so I was so thrown he didn't care for it.

I don't love "Family Business", but I do think it's one of the stronger (strongest?) Ferengi family episodes, which range from mediocre to utterly unwatchable. I enjoy it, kind of, but I actually found myself nodding along with a lot of the hosts' problems with it, even Armin's.

And I will also give Armin credit for critiquing his featured episodes. He was also (appropriately, IMO) down on "Prophet Motive."

But it should also be pointed out that Terry was similarly critical of both "Meridian" and "Facets," so fortunately none of the actors seem too blinded by their own spotlights.

 

[ananta]

I love “Family Busines” too and was surprised by Armin’s comments.

What astonished me most though was his criticism of Louise Fletcher’s performance in “Shakaar”. In spite of the fact she was an Oscar winner, his good friend and all round brilliant, he kept going on about her performance and saying she should have brought more nuance to the part. When Kira accuses Winn of wanting to steal Bareil’s glory, Winn retorts that Bareil didn’t do what he did for publicity and “since you were in a relationship with him I thought you’d know that”. Armin thought Louise could have delivered the line with kindness or in a pleasant way, whereas clearly as scripted Winn is being a dick. Louise was just doing her job. How could you interpret that line positively?

Anyway, I do still enjoy hearing his insights, and he does admit he’s a pedant. We’re all different I guess! I subscribed to the Patreon content and it was worth it as I kind of prefer the “after chat” even if I don’t always agree with it. I really enjoyed the insight into “Way of the Warrior” and it was great hearing from Michael (and seeing occasional TNG vs DS9 tensions between Michael and Armin). It strayed off topic but Terry almost had me in tears discussing her departure from both DS9 and Becker and fearing the loss of her elderly parents which I can very much relate to.

I’m glad Terry is doing “The Visitor” next time. If Armin picked it apart too much and they fail to appreciate what a masterpiece it is I don’t think I’d listen again

 

[Crewman6]

What astonished me most though was his criticism of Louise Fletcher’s performance in “Shakaar”. In spite of the fact she was an Oscar winner, his good friend and all round brilliant, he kept going on about her performance and saying she should have brought more nuance to the part. When Kira accuses Winn of wanting to steal Bareil’s glory, Winn retorts that Bareil didn’t do what he did for publicity and “since you were in a relationship with him I thought you’d know that”. Armin thought Louise could have delivered the line with kindness or in a pleasant way, whereas clearly as scripted Winn is being a dick. Louise was just doing her job. How could you interpret that line positively?

That was a rare instance where i agreed with Armin. Winn is usually played in a very one-dimensional way, with her villainy right out there in front.

I think, particularly in that episode, if she had started with a more conciliatory tone and, for a moment, you felt she might actually be a little genuine, then her villainous turn later in the episode would have carried more weight. Instead, it was just one-note Winn again at every stage.

I honestly find it shocking hearing from all of the actors how they never received acting notes from directors and how there were never any writer-producers on set.

So every actor was just winging it and hoping their interpretation was correct. It's no wonder that sometimes subtleties got lost along the way.

 

[ananta]

I never found Winn’s performance one-note personally. I thought Fletcher was quite masterful; she never resorted to scenery chewing as a lot of other actors would have done. But the bottom line is, like many people in real life, the character is not a nice person and there’s no getting around that fact. Her making digs at Kira over Bareil (including along the lines of “you’re STILL grieving? He died months ago!!”) couldn’t be taken in any way other than sheer dickery.

 

[Tuskin38]

The Prime Directive thing in Way Of The Warrior is painful. He so confidently gets it wrong over and over.

I'll have to re-watch the episode myself, but from what I remember I don't think he's technically wrong in that instance.

Unless the Cardassian government specifically asked for help, rescuing them would be a prime directive violation, for the same reason Picard didn't get directly involved with the Klingon Civil War in TNG.

 

[VDCNI]

I'll have to re-watch the episode myself, but from what I remember I don't think he's technically wrong in that instance.

Unless the Cardassian government specifically asked for help, rescuing them would be a prime directive violation, for the same reason Picard didn't get directly involved with the Klingon Civil War in TNG.

The Klingon Civil War was an internal matter, this is not.

And Dukat implicitly does ask for help.

 

[Crewman6]

The Klingon Civil War was an internal matter, this is not.

Exactly. An invasion by an outside aggressor is, by definition, not "internal."

Armin's argument would suggest the Federation can never come to the aid of anyone, ever.*

And, yes, the UFP and Cardassians did have a treat. It wasn't as long and well-established as the Klingon treaty, but it did exist and many stories in both TNG and DS9 centered around trying to "preserve" the treaty. It's arguable there was a mutual-defense clause, but that's just speculation.


*that said, the arguments given in "Ensign Ro" about how the UFP had to stand idly by and allow the Bajorans to be conquered and abused by the Cardassians during the Occupation don't hold water and that's not how the Prime Directive was ever meant to work. Particularly when Picard says those things "happened in the bounds of the Cardassian Empire. Uh, how the hell is Bajor in the bounds of the Cardassian Empire. Obviously, the Prime Directive is misunderstood and misapplied, even by Trek writers at times.

 

[Tuskin38]

I honestly found Michael Dorn more annoying in this episode, because he kept spoiling details from future episodes after Robbie and Garret said they didn’t want to be spoiled