The Dark Knight - Grading & Discussion

[Trekker4747]

There's something else that's been bugging me that I didn't mention... Lucious said he'd threaten to quit if Bruce kept the sonar room. He said it was too much power for one person to have. Seriously? I don't get that attitude. Having an advantage like that is a good thing, and neither he nor Bruce are bad guys. Too much power is only bad when someone else has it and might use it against you. If you're the one who has it, you keep it. Now if he said he was afraid it would fall into the wrong hands, then I could almost accept that.

We're talking about a very invasive device that spies on millions of citizens everywhere at once. It's TOO much power for anyone, even "good" people.

Fox saw the problem with spying on millions of innocent people at virtualy all times -without them knowing it! Putting chips in everyone at birth and knowing where everyone at all times would be a "good" thing too in fighting crime.

Doesn't make it right.

The Cellphone/SONAR thing was the USA PATRIOT ACT gone extreme.

It IS wrong!

It IS too much power for one man, for two men, for fifty men!

 

[Neroon]

Apparently, it wasn't too much for those two men, though. Bruce did install a self-directed destruct command, and gave said command to Fox ... who used it. And smiled.

It was a frightening concept, but it was a necessary evil in the course of this story. An evil that both men realized yet knew needed to be used because of the consequences. No, that doesn't make it right per se, but it does highlight another moral quandry faced in ths story of this film.

 

[Agent Richard07]

There's something else that's been bugging me that I didn't mention... Lucious said he'd threaten to quit if Bruce kept the sonar room. He said it was too much power for one person to have. Seriously? I don't get that attitude. Having an advantage like that is a good thing, and neither he nor Bruce are bad guys. Too much power is only bad when someone else has it and might use it against you. If you're the one who has it, you keep it. Now if he said he was afraid it would fall into the wrong hands, then I could almost accept that.

We're talking about a very invasive device that spies on millions of citizens everywhere at once. It's TOO much power for anyone, even "good" people.

Fox saw the problem with spying on millions of innocent people at virtualy all times -without them knowing it! Putting chips in everyone at birth and knowing where everyone at all times would be a "good" thing too in fighting crime.

Doesn't make it right.

The Cellphone/SONAR thing was the USA PATRIOT ACT gone extreme.

It IS wrong!

It IS too much power for one man, for two men, for fifty men!

If you had any kind of power or advantage in life you'd give it up? I wouldn't. I wouldn't abuse it, but I wouldn't give it up either. And who knows, it might come in useful someday.

 

[Captain Craig]

Knightfall would probably be the best-suited title for the third movie after how this one ended.

I agree. I like this over an earlier idea of Caped Crusader. His "fall" should be complete before the public can again see him as their "crusader".

Speaking of the fundraiser, looks like people forgot about Bruce kicking everyone out of his party. His antics didn't seem to burn any bridges or end too many relationships.

Money cures all bruised egos.

Stupid concept, terrible movie, waste of a decent actor's final role.

Then you'll be happy to know that this wasn't Ledger's final role.

Its his last FULL role however.

Very nice way that the director tricks the audience into being convinced Batman was going to rescue Rachel and send Gordon to get Harvey. I like nice little changeups like that.

I was confused by this. I thought Batman told Gordon he was going to get Rachel while they get Dent. Did I hear him wrong? If I didn't then why did he get Dent instead of her?

Did the Joker simply lie about whom was at each location? That is what I assumed.

I figured the Joker had lied because just moments earlier in the interrogation he openly taunts Batman by saying "does Dent know about you and his girlfriend?" Now how Joker knows this I still haven't put together but he alludes to knowing about Bruce/Rachel so I assumed he switched locations on purpose.

Oh, yeah. Definitely. I wasn't saying I was shocked by it or anything. Just an observation...

And people were definitely shocked when they saw the "pencil trick." Pretty much anything the Joker did that was played for comedy or shock value ellicited a strong response from the audience.

The "pencil kill" didn't get applause in my theater but it got response.
It was a few shrieks, verbal OMG, EEKS and I swear one guy behind me somewhere said SHIT! in a disturbed manner.

But not applause.

Didn't say that it got applause. Just said that people were shocked. I think I'd have been a little worried if people applauded that.

No but Trekker said applause and since you responded to that I had to assume you meant the same at your theater.

(Edit: Just saw a quote by David Goyer (given prior to the release of TDK) on Wikipedia stating that TPTB would prefer to use antagonists from the comics who have not yet appeared on the big screen as villians for future movies. Supposedly, he ruled out using Catwoman and The Penguin.

Meh. Not so sure that will stand true. You have to think the film will have a love interest and Selina Kyle would be great...)

I'm not sure it'll stand true either. Nolan is using the most realistic of villians. He fudged on Jokers origin so he could fudge on others. But Penguin could explained away exactly as he his, birth defect for his hands. Catwoman is simply a female criminal version of Batman. Riddler would be easy enough, just a crazy inspired by Joker. After those 3 Bane would be the next best choice, especially if you go with Knightfall for a title, it then really works.
Freeze, Ivy,Croc and Clayface are ones I'm not sure how Nolan "normalizes" for the realistic world he's creating for this Batman series.

People cheered and clapped when Gordon re-appeared to capture Joker. I think even the most suspecting people fell for it.

Those who did easily forgot a number of the trailers. At that point Joker was yet to be in custody with the line from Gordon "all he had in his pockets were knives and lint" and then of course Joker saying "good evening Commissioner".
I wasn't fooled but only wondered why the ruse.

 

[Lapis Exilis]

Trekker4747:
"Huge part of his body" or just the left side of his face.

Traditionally Two-Face is scarred all over the left side of his body. His suit is shown as severely burnt over the left shoulder, though I suppose the fact that it's intact might indicate that the first didn't get to his body. But it wasn't just his face that was soaked in gasoline.

There's something else that's been bugging me that I didn't mention... Lucious said he'd threaten to quit if Bruce kept the sonar room. He said it was too much power for one person to have. Seriously? I don't get that attitude. Having an advantage like that is a good thing, and neither he nor Bruce are bad guys. Too much power is only bad when someone else has it and might use it against you. If you're the one who has it, you keep it. Now if he said he was afraid it would fall into the wrong hands, then I could almost accept that.

Surveillance of innocent people is wrong no matter who is doing it. That's why so many people got upset over the federal wiretapping scandal, and the government's demands to Google that it turn over people's internet search records, and the libraries refused the federal government when the Bush administration demanded they hand over people's library records. Too much power is bad by nature, not by the nature of the person who holds it.

 

[Neroon]

If you had any kind of power or advantage in life you'd give it up? I wouldn't. I wouldn't abuse it, but I wouldn't give it up either. And who knows, it might come in useful someday.

The problem is that even good men can become corrupted by something so addictive as this power. That corruption leads to fear. Fear leads to hate ....

 

[Trekker4747]

Apparently, it wasn't too much for those two men, though. Bruce did install a self-directed destruct command, and gave said command to Fox ... who used it. And smiled.

It was a frightening concept, but it was a necessary evil in the course of this story. An evil that both men realized yet knew needed to be used because of the consequences. No, that doesn't make it right per se, but it does highlight another moral quandry faced in ths story of this film.

Even though they didn't abuse it. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Given time, that "power" would've corrupted them.

It was an evil they had to take on given this exteme situation, but doesn't make it right, true. But it was still way too much damn power for anyone to have.

It does, also add a nice facet to the film given the age we're living in.

Reminds me of a Jon Voight line from "Enemy of the State" where he speaking about rampant video surveillance and at one point he says, "eventualy the only privacy a person will have is their own mind -and maybe that's enough."

 

[Neroon]

Sorry, I messed up the quote:
"Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering."

 

[David cgc]

I figured the Joker had lied because just moments earlier in the interrogation he openly taunts Batman by saying "does Dent know about you and his girlfriend?" Now how Joker knows this I still haven't put together but he alludes to knowing about Bruce/Rachel so I assumed he switched locations on purpose.

It's not like it would've been any less frustrating if Batman had gone for Dent and found Rachel there. There's no reason to think switching the addresses had anything to do with the Joker specifically wanting to hit Batman in the girlfriend. The Joker would've switched both hostages regardless of Batman's attachment to either of him, because he's a dick.

People cheered and clapped when Gordon re-appeared to capture Joker. I think even the most suspecting people fell for it.

Those who did easily forgot a number of the trailers. At that point Joker was yet to be in custody with the line from Gordon "all he had in his pockets were knives and lint" and then of course Joker saying "good evening Commissioner".
I wasn't fooled but only wondered why the ruse.

I hope that everyone watching the movie was more involved in watching the movie than in mentally reviewing the previews and checking off which scenes they haven't seen yet.

 

[The Nth Doctor]

People cheered and clapped when Gordon re-appeared to capture Joker. I think even the most suspecting people fell for it.

Those who did easily forgot a number of the trailers. At that point Joker was yet to be in custody with the line from Gordon "all he had in his pockets were knives and lint" and then of course Joker saying "good evening Commissioner".
I wasn't fooled but only wondered why the ruse.

I hope that everyone watching the movie was more involved in watching the movie than in mentally reviewing the previews and checking off which scenes they haven't seen yet.

I wasn't mentally checking them off, no. However, the moment Gordon "died," I immediately recalled the clip of Gordon being held back by two cops, which we hadn't seen yet. I didn't even think of the two quotes Captain Craig mentioned until they happened in the film.

 

[PsychoPere]

It looked liek a two story fall, but it must be remembered that Harvey was suffering from major burns over a huge part of his body.

"Huge part of his body" or just the left side of his face.

That entire side of his body. Or did you not notice the flames that were all over him after the building exploded? Did you somehow miss Batman saying that Joker burned Dent "half to hell" because Batman wasn't quick enough to save him? The flames were indeed all over the left side of his body.

 

[S. Gomez]

People cheered and clapped when Gordon re-appeared to capture Joker. I think even the most suspecting people fell for it.

Those who did easily forgot a number of the trailers. At that point Joker was yet to be in custody with the line from Gordon "all he had in his pockets were knives and lint" and then of course Joker saying "good evening Commissioner".
I wasn't fooled but only wondered why the ruse.

I hope that everyone watching the movie was more involved in watching the movie than in mentally reviewing the previews and checking off which scenes they haven't seen yet.

Exactly what I did. (Watch the movie rather than remember the trailer, I mean.)

 

[Tyberius]

I loved Two-Face and the build up to his scarring and madness, but I was a bit disappointed that he was killed off in the end. He served the purpose of the film (showing even the greatest good can be pulled down) and the poignant open tribute to Harvey Dent's memory was a nice touch, but still had hoped he survived. At least, in the next film, we'll have all new villains, whoever they may be (my vote is for The Riddler).

Dent didn't necessarily die. Both Dent and Wayne fell from the same height (12 feet, 24 feet?), and Wayne had a bullet in the stomach. The memorial to Dent was to show Dent as a hero, it wasn't necessary that he truly died.

 

[Goliath]

If you had any kind of power or advantage in life you'd give it up? I wouldn't. I wouldn't abuse it, but I wouldn't give it up either. And who knows, it might come in useful someday.

I mean no offense, but I think you have a rather optimistic opinion of your own self-discipline and self-control.

The scenes involving the cellphone surveillance system tied in neatly with Dent's earlier discussion of the ancient Roman office of Dictator. In extreme emergencies, the Romans gave extraordinary powers to one man, who was then expected to give up those powers when the period of his dictatorship had passed.

In some cases, the system worked well. Cincinnatus, for example, was appointed dictator twice, resolved the emergency, and returned to his farm thereafter, making himself a hero to his people. (Byron called George Washington the "Cincinnatus of the West")

The problem, of course, is that not all men are as capable of self-denial as Cincinnatus. Ultimately, as Rachel pointed out in the restaurant, Caesar had himself appointed dictator for life.

Basically, the cellphone surveillance scenes showed that Batman may not have trusted himself with that kind of power--but he recognized his own potential weakness, and knew someone who could be trusted. And by placing the matter in Fox's hands, he ensured that he would be compelled to resign his electronic dictatorship.

 

[Trekker4747]

It looked liek a two story fall, but it must be remembered that Harvey was suffering from major burns over a huge part of his body.

"Huge part of his body" or just the left side of his face.

That entire side of his body. Or did you not notice the flames that were all over him after the building exploded? Did you somehow miss Batman saying that Joker burned Dent "half to hell" because Batman wasn't quick enough to save him? The flames were indeed all over the left side of his body.

It only looked to me like it was just his face that was burned/on fire not his entire half of his body. To mention only his face was bandaged.

As for Batman's "half to hell" line. Simple figure of speech.

 

[Flying Spaghetti Monster]

If you had any kind of power or advantage in life you'd give it up? I wouldn't. I wouldn't abuse it, but I wouldn't give it up either. And who knows, it might come in useful someday.

I mean no offense, but I think you have a rather optimistic opinion of your own self-discipline and self-control.

The scenes involving the cellphone surveillance system tied in neatly with Dent's earlier discussion of the ancient Roman office of Dictator. In extreme emergencies, the Romans gave extraordinary powers to one man, who was then expected to give up those powers when the period of his dictatorship had passed.

In some cases, the system worked well. Cincinnatus, for example, was appointed dictator twice, resolved the emergency, and returned to his farm therefater, making himself a hero to his people. (Byron called George Washington the "Cincinnatus of the West")

The problem, of course, is that not all men are as capable of self-denial as Cincinnatus. Ultimately, as Rachel pointed out in the restaurant, Caesar had himself appointed dictator for life.

Basically, the cellphone surveillance scenes showed that Batman may not have trusted himself with that kind of power--but he recognized his own potential weakness, and knew someone who could be trusted. And by placing the matter in Fox's hands, he ensured that he would be compelled to resign his electronic dictatorship.

Lucious Fox = Ron Paul

 

[Michael Chris]

Final numbers out at the numbers. Beat estimates by about $3 million for a total of $158.3 million.

 

[TGTheodore]

I figure since Chicago is now standing in for Gotham, that if Bruce ever goes nuts, he can go see Bob Hartley.

BOB: Please, uh ... sit down, Mr. Wayne. Now, what seems to be your problem ... you're what ... you're Batman. Could ... could you please excuse me a moment, Mr. Wayne? [into intercom] Carol, cancel my afternoons.

--Ted

 

[Neroon]

I figure since Chicago is now standing in for Gotham, that if Bruce ever goes nuts, he can go see Bob Hartley.

Yes! Thanks for bringing that up and reminding me. I noticed the Illinois license plates on the Lambourghini. Maybe that was Bruce's way of making the car much more subtle.

 

[Captain Craig]

I figured the Joker had lied because just moments earlier in the interrogation he openly taunts Batman by saying "does Dent know about you and his girlfriend?" Now how Joker knows this I still haven't put together but he alludes to knowing about Bruce/Rachel so I assumed he switched locations on purpose.

It's not like it would've been any less frustrating if Batman had gone for Dent and found Rachel there. There's no reason to think switching the addresses had anything to do with the Joker specifically wanting to hit Batman in the girlfriend. The Joker would've switched both hostages regardless of Batman's attachment to either of him, because he's a dick.

It wasn't, imo, about the level of frustration had it been an either/or but about the Jokers plan working(yes, he has plans despite what he tells Dent). His plan was to force either Dent or Batman into the exact type person he is and with the ferry bombs prove to Batman that all men could be like him given the circumstance. So,by killing Rachel and having them both live it lead to him being right...at least about Dent. It was all part of the plan.

People cheered and clapped when Gordon re-appeared to capture Joker. I think even the most suspecting people fell for it.

Those who did easily forgot a number of the trailers. At that point Joker was yet to be in custody with the line from Gordon "all he had in his pockets were knives and lint" and then of course Joker saying "good evening Commissioner".
I wasn't fooled but only wondered why the ruse.

I hope that everyone watching the movie was more involved in watching the movie than in mentally reviewing the previews and checking off which scenes they haven't seen yet.

Sorry, but when you show me trailers for 4 months I'm going to remember things. Same for TIH. They had trailer footage not in the movie and its been done with other movies. I just don't have A.D.D. I guess.