Spoilers The Controversial Star Wars Opinion Thread

[Shawnster]

And this is bad?

It stops enjoyment?

If you don't want any more new stories set in that particular version of the universe, then no, it's not bad and it doesn't stop the enjoyment.

On the other hand, if you want more, then yes, it's bad for you and your enjoyment will not grow.

Again, let's go back to the break up of your favorite music band again. Is that bad? Does it ruin your enjoyment? Well, you can go back and listen to all their albums, and your enjoyment for their music is as strong as ever, but the reality is the band broke up and there is no new music from them ever again. You enjoy their old stuff, but never again have the thrill and excitement of hearing a new album for the first time from this band ever again?

Would your enjoyment of Star Wars be different now if the franchise never took off and we only had the 1 original movie? What if (as happened for nearly 20 years) the franchise ended at ROTJ and there was nothing else? Sure, you enjoy those 3 movies, but would your enjoyment be as rich as it now that you've enjoyed 9, 10, 11 movies plus at least 8 TV series, plus video games and novels?

No, the franchise did not end, but it has stopped producing a specific era of stories. Kinda like how Van Halen continued without David Lee Roth, to the chagrin of a lot of fans.

Some people don't like certain changes. That does not make them wrong.

 

[fireproof78]

On the other hand, if you want more, then yes, it's bad for you and your enjoyment will not grow.

Hard disagree.

Very hard disagree. There are so many stories that stopped for me that I still enjoy, regardless. The fact that it stopped doesn't change my enjoyment. It seems rather arbitrary a thing to stop enjoyment.

Some people don't like certain changes. That does not make them wrong.

Ah, yes. No where did I say it was wrong. Simply not an attitude that I think is beneficial to people. That creates more grief than necessary.

Would your enjoyment of Star Wars be different now if the franchise never took off and we only had the 1 original movie? What if (as happened for nearly 20 years) the franchise ended at ROTJ and there was nothing else? Sure, you enjoy those 3 movies, but would your enjoyment be as rich as it now that you've enjoyed 9, 10, 11 movies plus at least 8 TV series, plus video games and novels?

Yes.

 

[JD]

Honestly, I'm glad they ended the EU, and overall I have enjoyed the Disney era books and comics I've read more than the majority of the EU stuff I read. Don't get me wrong there some great books and comics in the old EU, but I've enjoyed more of the books in the Disney era to higher degree than the majority of the EU.
And really, by the time we they sold Lucasfilm to Disney, we were reaching a point where the EU was barely even Star Wars anymore. It had gone so far off from the movie and had gotten so complex that it was almost completely unrecognizable as even being part of the same franchise as the movies. I think towards the end even Lucasfilm was starting to recognize this as they seemed to be doing more and more stuff set back around the time of the movies and less stuff in their later eras.
So yeah, I'd say starting the tie ins over from scratch was probably one of the smartest things Disney did when they took over.
And for people who want to see the universe expanded beyond what we see in the movies, there's still plenty of that happening. If you're looking for a book that focuses on new characters with no Jedi or bounty hunters or any of that, I'd highly recommend Lost Stars by Claudia Gray, it focuses on two original characters, one who joins the Rebellion and one who sides with the Empire. It's a terrific book.

 

[Michael Two Wolves]

I could give a flying fig about the Yuuzhan Vong, for instance. What I loved was the lore. The mortar between the bricks.

All the details in the Essentials guides or the Haynes Manuals. I wanted more of that. I want more in-universe pop culture like Biscuit Baron and their little Jolly Meal toys. I wanted more of the background brought to the fore. It is unlikely Disney will produce an encyclopedia, and even then, for what? Characters who weren’t great to begin with?

How about we just send a Star Destroyer off on a continuous mission to explore space and seek out new civilization…? Lmao Then we’d be able to see the inside of a Star Destroyer up close while meeting new races of aliens and exploring new worlds for imperial conquest.

 

[Ithekro]

A .lot of stuff in the "mortar between the bricks" is actually still there. Lucasfilm likes a bunch of that sort of stuff that they see no reason to remake them. Sometimes they make a reference to those sorts of things in newer shows. They aren't up in front, but generally you can see things in the background or casual references to things in the galaxy that are straight out of an old West End Games book, an old EU novel, or more deep than that...The Holiday Special and Ewoks cartoons.

 

[fireproof78]

A .lot of stuff in the "mortar between the bricks" is actually still there. Lucasfilm likes a bunch of that sort of stuff that they see no reason to remake them. Sometimes they make a reference to those sorts of things in newer shows. They aren't up in front, but generally you can see things in the background or casual references to things in the galaxy that are straight out of an old West End Games book, an old EU novel, or more deep than that...The Holiday Special and Ewoks cartoons.

Yup.

And still works in playing multiple RPGs sp still not sure what was lost.

 

[Ithekro]

That's a fun theory, but the basis of it is actually an early pitch they made for Clone Wars when they mistakenly assumed Lucas wouldn't want them to overuse the legacy characters, they they had a rag-tag group on a small ship, with a pair of Jedi as tag-alongs. Ahsoka (named 'Ashla' at the time) as the young padawan was the only carryover into Clone Wars proper.
Any similarity with the WEG party structure is most likely just the result of the narrative practicalities of a group dynamic. The structure of the Ghost crew was clearly modelled on an almost sitcom-esque family unit, with the mum & dad, two teenagers, the crazy and/or grumpy uncle, and the semi-feral house cat.

I hope the "buff Ithorian tough guy" makes it into some other project eventually. He looks like fun.

Interesting. Though the six party structure and freighter still reads like something one would do in the late 80s early 90s playing the WEG Star Wars. Though that might just be narratively a good concept anyway. I know Pablo Hidalgo use to write for that old roleplaying game, so refences to such materials would not be out of place even before The Clone Wars started production.

 

[Reverend]

Since we're on the subject of WEG, and that this is germane to a debate sparked by a certain character in a certain new show training to be a Jedi; I thought I'd share this little nugget from the first edition rules on character creation, first published in 1987.

So anyone that claims that this is in any way a new concept, is just flat wrong. It's such a fundamental concept that WEG built it into the mechanics that *every* character has at least 1 "force point". Hell, it even specifically leans into the concept of Han being low-key force sensitive WAY before TFA brought it back to the surface.

Interesting. Though the six party structure and freighter still reads like something one would do in the late 80s early 90s playing the WEG Star Wars. Though that might just be narratively a good concept anyway. I know Pablo Hidalgo use to write for that old roleplaying game, so refences to such materials would not be out of place even before The Clone Wars started production.

Like I said; that's not just a game mechanic thing specific to SWWEG it's how group dynamics work in storytelling and pen & paper RPGs are at their core about facilitating storytelling with a group of people. You could apply the same basic structure to 'Firefly', 'Stargate', 'Farscape', and essentially any similar adventure story about a small group of companions with only minor variance.

Pablo by his own vehement insistence has nothing to do with story pitches or anything on the writing side. When it comes to this kind of thing, he's basically a lore advisor that's there to help the actual storytellers get where they want to be and to help them navigate all of the existing material if and when necessary. Yes, he'll often slip in little background references to WEG era story material as is his want (also Matt Martin's, as he's a WEG fan from wayback too.) Those however are just sly nods and simple lore pulls.

 

[Michael Two Wolves]

That’s a good justification for turning the Jedi into the Star Wars version of Pepsi.

Again, how many different retelling of the same story do we need? How many different people do we have to hear from about their role in the galactic civil war, or that they were once a Jedi or a bounty hunter or an imperial spy, or…

It would be refreshing to hear about a Star Wars story that didn’t involve Jedi, bounty hunters, Sith or the galactic empire. Overused tropes are cliche.

 

[Set Harth]

How about we just send a Star Destroyer off on a continuous mission to explore space and seek out new civilization…? Lmao Then we’d be able to see the inside of a Star Destroyer up close while meeting new races of aliens and exploring new worlds for imperial conquest.

They should totally do a show about that... the crew could even wear differently colored shirts depending on rank. Just a starship trekking around the galaxy! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before? Now all we need is a name for the show...

It's such a fundamental concept that WEG built it into the mechanics that *every* character has at least 1 "force point".

It's just like how every character has at least one midichlorian! amazing

Hell, it even specifically leans into the concept of Han being low-key force sensitive WAY before TFA brought it back to the surface.

Except TFA did no such thing.

 

[Michael Two Wolves]

They should totally do a show about that... the crew could even wear differently colored shirts depending on rank. Just a starship trekking around the galaxy! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before? Now all we need is a name for the show...

Grand Moff Picard takes over the ISD Devastator and heads immediately for the Unknown Regions with his XO, a Chiss named Riker, and their 3PO named Data.

The new Starfleet: civilizing worlds one system at a time…whether they want it or not. Lmao

Legendary status.

 

[suarezguy]

"Hahaha, those EU fans! Look how silly they are!" Deriding and scorning people who want what they feel is a much deeper lore than what Disney offers (offers as a platter of road kill, no less) is a great way to make new fans and bring in old ones, said no one ever.

The really weird as well as offputting (and/or not really surprising) thing is that the sequel movies decanonized the novels and/in order to tell at least broadly similar stories.

As one of my friends put it after arguing about The Phantom Menace with another friend who was angry that all the trivia and books he memorized was for nothing: "George Lucas can do whatever the hell he wants and doesn't owe me a damn thing. "

He also doesn't owe anything to Lucas including watching anything further.

 

[Michael Two Wolves]

Broadly similar stories is code word for Marvelize the EU and no one wants that. Wtf, they gonna combine Star Wars and Star Trek into one universe at some distant future to make broadly similar stories?

The idea of broadly similar stories is the problem. How many times do we need to hear about the galactic civil war before it becomes so mundane that no one cares anymore? How many more times do we need to hear about the Jedi?

Some people like the idea of different background stories to add depth and detail to the broader stories being told. Some prefer them more so than the main stories.

Give me a Star Wars version of 24, or Alias, just leave the Jedi and Empire and Alliance alone. They’re becoming tropes, and tropes are cliche.

 

[fireproof78]

Is this a bad time to say that the original Star Wars is one big trope?

He also doesn't owe anything to Lucas including watching anything further.

Nope.

Welcome to business. Despite the passion of fans no obligation exists except a mutual business transaction.

That fans love SW doesn't mean Lucas or Disney are obligated to fulfill fan wishes.

Again, I'll reiterate, if the fans had their way Lucas would have sold after the PT and the PT erased.

Reasonable, right?

Again, how many different retelling of the same story do we need? Ho

Need?

None.

How many are people willing to buy?

 

[Michael Two Wolves]

Yeah I get that the whole franchise is one big trope, but Marvel’s rush to collide with DC’s universe is not a great idea, and doing the same in Star Wars is an even worse idea.

Part of the problem is that it smacks of a naked money grab for marketing junk. That in turn takes what was an artistic endeavor and turns it into a crass machine to print money on devoid of the artistic quality of what came before.

Or are we really going to say that Hayden’s performance as Anakin in RotS was on par with David Prowse’s physical acting and James Earl Jones’ dialogue? RotS felt so…empty. It just didn’t feel like Irv Kirshner’s work on ESB.

There are fascinating stories that could be told within the framework of the EU universe that could have excelled as a vehicle for Disney to enter. Even with the surface crapola of the EU removed and the “mortar” left in place.

What about Ann and Tann Gela’s story? Or how about a no name? Let’s hear a story about an illegal outlaw tech operating out of Smuggler’s Run through a droid frontman named Bright Eyes. Let’s hear a story about a bunch of ragtag spacers who scrape together enough wuipiupi to enter the Kessel Run and win the purse despite huge odds.

I can pull ideas out all day long that are better than “Here’s yet another Jedi outrunning the Clone Trooper and Order 66.” Let’s see something that involves actual lore building that doesn’t involve anything bigger than hoodwinking Hutts and running the Maw.

 

[fireproof78]

Or are we really going to say that Hayden’s performance as Anakin in RotS was on par with David Prowse’s physical acting and James Earl Jones’ dialogue? R

Damn. I didn't even know this was a thought? Kudos on the non sequitur.

I can pull ideas out all day long that are better than “Here’s yet another Jedi outrunning the Clone Trooper and Order 66.” Let’s see something that involves actual lore building that doesn’t involve anything bigger than hoodwinking Hutts and running the Maw.

Looking forward to your fan fiction page.

 

[suarezguy]

Again, I'll reiterate, if the fans had their way Lucas would have sold after the PT and the PT erased.

Reasonable, right?

I don't think there were a lot of fans who, even those who did dislike the prequels, wanted new versions of Prequels backstory to be made (which yes would be pretty unreasonable disrespectful to what had been done), just some new Empire/Vader/Rebels stories between the trilogies to be made as well as further works being in very different eras.

 

[suarezguy]

Or are we really going to say that Hayden’s performance as Anakin in RotS was on par with David Prowse’s physical acting and James Earl Jones’ dialogue? RotS felt so…empty. It just didn’t feel like Irv Kirshner’s work on ESB.

Not being as good as one of the best films ever made doesn't mean it's bad or not still good. Although it probably is a good idea to when you inevitably will have comparisons at least be pretty different to try to minimize the comparisons.

 

[fireproof78]

I was on two forums and in a fan group who pushed hard for it. Probably not as big as those pushing it thought but it was actively talked about.

don't think there were a lot of fans who, even those who did dislike the prequels, wanted new versions of Prequels backstory to be made (which yes would be pretty

 

[Michael Two Wolves]

I don't think there were a lot of fans who, even those who did dislike the prequels, wanted new versions of Prequels backstory to be made (which yes would be pretty unreasonable disrespectful to what had been done), just some new Empire/Vader/Rebels stories between the trilogies to be made as well as further works being in very different eras.

Exactly. We have The Phantom Edit proving that fans want to honor the best Star Wars has to offer, and it was a fan edit that was tacitly endorsed by Lucasfilm.

Non sequitur? The quality of RotS felt off compared to the original trilogy. It felt rushed and the characters felt shallow.

I have fan fiction, actually, I’m the form of a huge addendum to the EU that was painstaking crafted to fit within canon without conflict. I built an entire hidden empire of droids, as well as dozens of non-star characters with detailed backgrounds that in turn touched upon more characters and tied up loose ends in the canon with a bow on top. I was going to release it as a campaign setting for an obsolete game system that is still popular (Saga Edition d20). I actually did attempt to write a novel but I have to rework a character.

Edit: I stuck with the same character specifically to highlight the decline in acting quality. As Anakin/Vader, David Prowse/James Earl Jones. So I’m not sure where the confusion is.