What about the Dominion War? Heck, the six-part occupation story from season six and the nine-part final chapter from season seven give you 15 episodes alone.
The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager
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What about the Dominion War? Heck, the six-part occupation story from season six and the nine-part final chapter from season seven give you 15 episodes alone.
I don't think most of VOY's Maquis eps constitute an arc, more like the occasional namedrop into the storyline.
HUnters = B'Elanna finds out that all her friends are dead.
Extreme Risk = B'Elanna stops trying to commit suicide by holodeck every night after every adventure between Hunters and this.
#415 Hunters (The big news)
#416 Prey
#417 Retrospects
#418 The Killing Game (A month having sex with a holographic Nazi.)
#419 Vis a Vis (Holier than though about how she's saner than depressed Tom Paris.)
#420 The Omega Directive
#421 Unforgettable (Brain wiped by Virginia Madison.)
#422 Living Witness
#423 Demon (Copied and massreplicated by aliens. many of these copies may never have gotten help and killed themselves.)
#424 One
#425 Hope and Fear
#501 Night (Janeway, utterly insane, rocking in her quarters, humming to her self for 3 months. What a prime example of mental health for B'Elanna to follow.)
#502 Drone
#503 Extreme Risk (Gets help for her deathwish)
Extreme Risk = B'Elanna stops trying to commit suicide by holodeck every night after every adventure between Hunters and this.
#415 Hunters (The big news)
#416 Prey
#417 Retrospects
#418 The Killing Game (A month having sex with a holographic Nazi.)
#419 Vis a Vis (Holier than though about how she's saner than depressed Tom Paris.)
#420 The Omega Directive
#421 Unforgettable (Brain wiped by Virginia Madison.)
#422 Living Witness
#423 Demon (Copied and massreplicated by aliens. many of these copies may never have gotten help and killed themselves.)
#424 One
#425 Hope and Fear
#501 Night (Janeway, utterly insane, rocking in her quarters, humming to her self for 3 months. What a prime example of mental health for B'Elanna to follow.)
#502 Drone
#503 Extreme Risk (Gets help for her deathwish)
What does the Dominion War have to do with the Maquis? That's the subject I was talking about.
TNG did 9 episodes that dealt, either directly or indirectly, with the concept of the Maquis, and DS9 did 10, for a total of 19 Maquis-related episodes total spread across two different series, as compared to the 20 episodes from Voyager that dealt either directly or indirectly with the concept.
Anyway, the point I was trying to make is that, contrary to perception, Voyager didn't actually veer away from the Maquis angle; it just utilized things differently than was originally intended.
The bottom line is not whether VOY possessed continuity throughout it's run-because clearly it did, but whether one feels what they did, was enough for the viewer. The answer is, as evidenced in this thread, entirely subjective. Were you happy with the amount of carryover that a major story presented as the show progressed? For some, the answer is yes. For some, not nearly enough. A linear goal of getting home, stranded without backup, two groups divided by ideology thrust together...could have provided a multitude of serialized or continuing, intricate character arcs. But tptb (producers, studio, network) were not interested in that kind of show.
So we get a stubbornly rigid episodic show, that occasionally allows elements to resurface over the course of it's run. Was it a good show overall? Can someone disappointed that more wasn't done, judge what they did do objectively?
The eternal debate continues, 12 years after the end of the series. Now that's continuity!
So we get a stubbornly rigid episodic show, that occasionally allows elements to resurface over the course of it's run. Was it a good show overall? Can someone disappointed that more wasn't done, judge what they did do objectively?
The eternal debate continues, 12 years after the end of the series. Now that's continuity!
^ I've been trying to demonstrate that continuity of story and character was maintained to a much greater degree than is perceived, and fully believe that I've done a fairly good job even if not everyone accepts the evidence I've offered and the conclusions I've drawn. The series admittedly could've been better at maintaining continuity of details (physical rank pips, crew numbers, resource supply numbers, etc.), but those things are negligible, IMO, when you look at what the series did as a whole.
The more I watch and research Voyager, BTW, the more firm my conviction that the show is a Serialized Procedural - with all of the continuity and serialization trappings thereof - becomes, and the more I become convinced that the show absolutely needs to be experienced as the Serialized Procedural it is in order for it to be totally appreciated.
The more I watch and research Voyager, BTW, the more firm my conviction that the show is a Serialized Procedural - with all of the continuity and serialization trappings thereof - becomes, and the more I become convinced that the show absolutely needs to be experienced as the Serialized Procedural it is in order for it to be totally appreciated.
Has any one agreed with you that Voyager had more continuity than they thought there was?
Are you changing minds?
Are you changing minds?
But VOY unlike the other Trek shows had a clearly defined goal to get home. The show was about that.
TNG was a serialised procedural, exploring the out boundires of the Federation and flying the flag (so to speak). It had no real defined end goal, VOY by having a defined end goal was more akin to a novel.
We have those that are happy for what it was, and some who feel it could have been so much more, they don't hate the show they are just dissapointed with it.
We all have our different expectations of what we want from a show, so no matter the show it will more often or not fail to please some of the audiance. I suspect that had VOY been made 5 or so years early, we might not be talking about continuity, their was a shift in audiance tastes to more heavily serialised shows just starting to happen around the time VOY came out.
TNG was a serialised procedural, exploring the out boundires of the Federation and flying the flag (so to speak). It had no real defined end goal, VOY by having a defined end goal was more akin to a novel.
We have those that are happy for what it was, and some who feel it could have been so much more, they don't hate the show they are just dissapointed with it.
We all have our different expectations of what we want from a show, so no matter the show it will more often or not fail to please some of the audiance. I suspect that had VOY been made 5 or so years early, we might not be talking about continuity, their was a shift in audiance tastes to more heavily serialised shows just starting to happen around the time VOY came out.
I see TNG as being much more of an Episodic series than a Serialized Procedural - and think the show itself supports that conclusion - but to each their own.
As for Voyager, I don't see how or why having an end goal makes it any less of a Serialized Procedural because it's the execution of said end goal that makes the show adhere to the Serialized Procedural format.
I'm not sure if that's happening on these forums, but I've at the very least started a discussion, even if it's largely a dissenting one.
I've posted pretty much the same analysis as here on other forums (although I haven't gone quite as in-depth as I have here), and have gotten a little more positive push-back, but I'm not really trying to force people's opinions to change so a lack of positive push-back here doesn't bother me.
TNG was certainly an episodic procedural.
Voyagers job was to be a little better than TNG... But it's job was also to be a little better than DS9.
"What's more exotic than a black guy?"
"What about a woman?"
"Wow! That really ticks the minority box!"
"You sure you don't just want to play it safe and use a white guy again?"
"Next time, next time I promise you, I'll generic the shit out of the next show."
^ I don't know whether or not Voyager needed to be better, per se, than TNG and DS9, but it did need to differentiate itself and carve out its own identity, and I think it did so fairly well.
It's hard to compare TNG to DS9 and Voyager or DS9 to TNG and Voyager (IMO) because they're all so different in terms of format. It's far easier and more fitting to compare TOS and TNG to one another and Voyager and Enterprise to one another because they're of the same format, with DS9 being the 'standalone' entity of the franchise (which is just fine).
It's hard to compare TNG to DS9 and Voyager or DS9 to TNG and Voyager (IMO) because they're all so different in terms of format. It's far easier and more fitting to compare TOS and TNG to one another and Voyager and Enterprise to one another because they're of the same format, with DS9 being the 'standalone' entity of the franchise (which is just fine).
For a more serialized plot, the show needed more than a "Gilligan's Island" plot wherein the main series point could NEVER be resolved without ending the show.
Let's face it, they were never going to get home before the finale because then the show would be over....because they never gave the more of a plot than that.
Let's face it, they were never going to get home before the finale because then the show would be over....because they never gave the more of a plot than that.
Sorry, when you wrote "it surpasses the number of episodes from both TNG and DS9 combined that dealt either directly or indirectly with the same subject" I read that as meaning any subject -- not the subject of the Maquis. My mistake.
I see TNG as being much more of an Episodic series than a Serialized Procedural - and think the show itself supports that conclusion - but to each their own.
As for Voyager, I don't see how or why having an end goal makes it any less of a Serialized Procedural because it's the execution of said end goal that makes the show adhere to the Serialized Procedural format.
I'm not sure if that's happening on these forums, but I've at the very least started a discussion, even if it's largely a dissenting one.
I've posted pretty much the same analysis as here on other forums (although I haven't gone quite as in-depth as I have here), and have gotten a little more positive push-back, but I'm not really trying to force people's opinions to change so a lack of positive push-back here doesn't bother me.
Haven't you been using story themes as athe basis for saying VOY was a serialised procedural
in TNG
we had "Coming of Age" and "Conspiracy" dealing with a percieved threat to Starfleet.
Worf's arc his loss of honour, tied into of course the Klingon arc with Duras, K'mpec and the Duras, which tied into part the Romualns. Trying to destablise the Klingon-Fedeation alliance.
"Sins of The Father", "Reunion", "Redmeption, I", "Redemption II", "Birthright, Part I", "Birthright, Part II"
"The Enemy", "Unification, Part I", "Unifcation, Part II"
Then of course we have Data's arc to become more human, the Borg arc. Q's arc etc.. Even Wes had an arc about the academy.
More than enough I think to meet the same standard to be classed as a serialised procdure that you are applying to VOY
A show isn't a Serialized Procedural because it has recurring story arcs. What makes a show a Serialized Procedural is the way that things are linked together from week to week even though the actual story of any given episode might be episodic in nature.
As I noted, you can, by and large, watch any episode of TNG in any order because the way it deals with story/character progression and recurring story arcs is very broad.
Voyager, on the other hand, deals with story/character progression and recurring story arcs and thematic narratives in a much more focused fashion.
Let me put this another way: the difference between TNG and Voyager is like the difference between the Law and Order franchise shows and Bones.
It's not Voyager's overall plot that makes it fall into the Serialized Procedural format (see above for an explanation of what does). Bones doesn't have an overall plot, yet it's still very much a Serialized Procedural.
It's all good.
I'd say the way the series dealt with characters was a bit of a mixed bag. The Doctor grew and changed over the course of the series. Seven of Nine was more or less stagnant after 'The Gift,' learning the same lesson week after week. Tom and B'Elanna had a relationship that grew and developed over time. Neelix and Kes had a relationship that was the same every week, ended off screen, and had the only scene addressing the break-up end up on the cutting room floor. Harry, the character you'd expect to show the most growth judging from 'Caretaker,' demonstrated almost none.
I don't think VOY did enough to really be that different from TNG. Every once in awhile it was nice to get an episode that dealt with the main premise, like in Hunters where Chaktoay and Torres learn of what happened to their Maquis comrades. But most of the time it really was just coasting on the episodic style of TNG where they face an anomaly of the week, alien of the week, ect. The worst kind is where they have two plots that have nothing to do with eachother, like "Real Life" where the Doc starts his own holographic family, meanwhile VOY finds some spacial whatwhat and has to technobabble their way through the whole thing. Then there's the plethora of holodeck episodes. Sometimes it seems like the holodeck was an easy out for the writers of Voyager. Don't feel like doing a real episode this week? Turn in a holo-episode! Fact is, the holodeck NEVER should have been included in the show. If I were in the production team, I would have fought for not including it.
How fun would it have been where Voyager gets seriously damage and the event carries over in the next few episodes? In "Deadlock" they get the ship seriously beaten to the point that they have to abandon the bridge. Very next episode? Clean as a whistle.
I think they should have taken more chances with the show. Example: Voyager crash lands on a planet and that thread carries over for five episodes before they can launch VOY back into space. Throughout those five episodes they have to deal with a whole lot of things, natives, wild beasts, and mid-way through that arc they realize the only way they can launch is if they have something they need, which is on that very planet. With transporters offline, an away team has to trek through the jungles to find that element. One episode has them actually find it, the next episode focuses on the crew worried about the away team because communications are down and they can't be sure of if they succeeded or not.
Heck, destroy Voyager for good in one of the later season finales. You might think "wait, how can there be a STAR TREK: VOYAGER without the very ship called Voyager?" Simple, they aquire an alien ship, rechristen it as Voyager.
How fun would it have been where Voyager gets seriously damage and the event carries over in the next few episodes? In "Deadlock" they get the ship seriously beaten to the point that they have to abandon the bridge. Very next episode? Clean as a whistle.
I think they should have taken more chances with the show. Example: Voyager crash lands on a planet and that thread carries over for five episodes before they can launch VOY back into space. Throughout those five episodes they have to deal with a whole lot of things, natives, wild beasts, and mid-way through that arc they realize the only way they can launch is if they have something they need, which is on that very planet. With transporters offline, an away team has to trek through the jungles to find that element. One episode has them actually find it, the next episode focuses on the crew worried about the away team because communications are down and they can't be sure of if they succeeded or not.
Heck, destroy Voyager for good in one of the later season finales. You might think "wait, how can there be a STAR TREK: VOYAGER without the very ship called Voyager?" Simple, they aquire an alien ship, rechristen it as Voyager.
Somehow I don't feel that elements built into the premise of the series--things that are at the core of the characters' being--really count. The way I see it, there were many episodes of Gilligan's Island where the castaways tried to escape the island. That didn't make for continuity, just an ongoing acknowledgement of the premise.
But we all agree, that if we wanted to get off that island, the first thing we had to do was kill Gilligan?
^If you do that, he won't be able to ward off the invasion of neighboring savages (i.e., the Kazon) through slapstick.
