The Continuity and Serialization of Voyager

[MakeshiftPython]

@MakeshiftPython: Do you understand what the term 'Serialized Procedural' means? You seem to be condemning Voyager for not being what you thought it should've been rather than looking at it and accepting it for what it was.

I used to have a similar attitude, but realized that if it is judged on its own merits as the type of show it actually is rather than the type of show it was originally envisioned as being, it actually works very well. It might not be everyone's 'cup of tea' when accurately judged as the Serialized Procedural that it is, but that's an entirely different thing than dismissing it because it wasn't more like, say, DS9, B5, or BSG, because that's not the kind of show it ended up being even if it was originally envisioned as being such.

@Guy: If I were going to compare and contrast The X-Files, Fringe, and Voyager based on how well they reflect the Serialized Procedural formula, I'd say that X-Files struck the best balance, with Voyager striking the next-best balance, and Fringe starting out striking a good balance before sort of morphing into a more heavily serialized show.

I've judged it as a "serialized procedural", and it sucked at it. Sometimes it got too procedural with the inane spacial anomalies that mean nothing for the characters. It's not even good at being serialized, like how Janeway makes a deal with the Hirogen, the kind of deal she condemned about making with the Kazon in the first two seasons.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ Okay. I personally disagree with that assessment, but to each their own.

I will say that I would've liked to have seen more elements of serialization when it came to certain characters (the crewmen from Learning Curve) and alien species (the Vaadwaur), but still am able to enjoy the show as-is.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They do something about nothing until they're surprised by a woogy in the beginning of the episode, the woogy pwns then treating them like a b####s, until they have a bright idea, which they use a 20th century metaphor to explain the 24th century technology gimickiness, which is when then they win out or save the day, and then tell a super cheesy joke or a homespun a moral value everyone should live by. Roll credits.

Reset button!

Next episode same as the last.

Above is the procedure for all Star Trek with GLARING and MANY exceptions.

Digfic, good doesn't mean anything unless you know what bad is (And Poor is worse than bad and excellent is better than good.), I'm just asking from your gut a couple shows that have poorer continuity, no research, just pull some genre shows from our ass that hurt you or insulted your intelligence with the ham fisted shit they tried to pull on your watch.

 

[DigificWriter]

@Guy: Okay, how about this: The serialized elements of Bones' first season were thrown totally out of whack because of the way it was aired and presented, and to an even worse degree than happened on Voyager with regards to Seasons 1 and 2, and there was no reason for such to have been the case.

@Harvey: TNG is almost wholly episodic aside from a few instances in the first and second seasons. With TNG, there's by and large nothing stopping you from watching any episode - save for multi-part episodes - in almost any order with no story consequences.

There's nothing wrong with that type of show, but it's not the same type of show as Voyager even though it might seem like it at first glance.

 

[Guy Gardener]

@Harvey: TNG is almost wholly episodic aside from a few instances in the first and second seasons. With TNG, there's by and large nothing stopping you from watching any episode - save for multi-part episodes - in almost any order with no story consequences.

In the beginning of this thread, that is exactly what I said about Voyager.

 

[DigificWriter]

@Harvey: TNG is almost wholly episodic aside from a few instances in the first and second seasons. With TNG, there's by and large nothing stopping you from watching any episode - save for multi-part episodes - in almost any order with no story consequences.

In the beginning of this thread, that is exactly what I said about Voyager.

I know, but I think I've been able to disprove that. If you disagree, that's fine, but I still stand by my analysis of Voyager as being a Serialized Procedural rather than an Episodic Series.

 

[Harvey]

@Harvey: TNG is almost wholly episodic aside from a few instances in the first and second seasons. With TNG, there's by and large nothing stopping you from watching any episode - save for multi-part episodes - in almost any order with no story consequences.

I'm not sure I see it that way. Nearly every appearance of Q, for example, builds upon what happened previously. Each appearance of the Borg is a sequel to the previous episodes with the race. There is a serialized narrative about Worf, Duras, and Gowron (which ends up intersecting with a serialized narrative about the Romulans, which is connected to "Yesterday's Enterprise," which is connected to "Skin of Evil," etc.).

 

[Guy Gardener]

You made convincing argument Digfic, but you haven't proved anything. You didn't surprise us with any revelations or untoward hidden/forgotten gems. It was nice to see it all set out, but what Voyager brought to the party was really quite limited.

We agree that Voyager has the same level of continuity, only you call it good and I call it bad.

You have lower standards.

 

[DigificWriter]

I'm not sure I see it that way. Nearly every appearance of Q, for example, builds upon what happened previously. Each appearance of the Borg is a sequel to the previous episodes with the race. There is a serialized narrative about Worf, Duras, and Gowron (which ends up intersecting with a serialized narrative about the Romulans, which is connected to "Yesterday's Enterprise," which is connected to "Skin of Evil," etc.).

Okay. I can see your argument, but, with TNG, I never felt like I was 'missing something' by not having seen every individual 'piece' of the arcs you mentioned, but would feel like I was missing out on important info if I were to have seen, say, Faces without having seen Phage, or Deadlock without having seen Elogium, Tattoo, and Dreadnought.

We agree that Voyager has the same level of continuity, only you call it good and I call it bad.

Actually, I think I've made it clear that I think the series had a far greater degree of continuity than you do, and have tried to demonstrate why I hold that opinion.

This is definitely a case where we're going to have to agree to disagree, which is fine.

 

[MacLeod]

Honestly other then the brief kazon arc VOY really wasn't any more serialized then TNG and was definitely a step back from DS9

I think I've been able to sufficiently demonstrate otherwise.

You also really can't compare DS9 and Voyager because, as I've noted and tried to demonstrate, they're very different. The former is a Babylon 5-style 'televised novel' (although it plays out its narrative differently than B5) and the latter is a Serialized Procedural.

But isn't that the point VOY's premise indicates it should be a televised novel (to use your phrase), yet we didn't get that. So it could be said it failed to live upto it's premise.

 

[DigificWriter]

But isn't that the point VOY's premise indicates it should be a televised novel (to use your phrase), yet we didn't get that. So it could be said it failed to live upto it's premise.

That's really a subjective question. I personally think Voyager's premise works just fine with the series being a Serialized Procedural, especially given that's as originally conceived, it was envisioned as being a 'televised novel'.

I do think that the show would've been less polarizing if it had initially been conceived as being the Serialized Procedural that it is, though, instead of 'morphing' into that form in execution.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Lets talk about how you prove that you are right and other people are wrong.

They get down on their knees and kiss your feet.

The evidence you supplied that voyagers continuity is good is exactly the identical evidence I would supply (copy and paste) to say that it is sparse and intermittent.

This is completely a matter of opinion.

I'm not kissing your feet today.

 

[DigificWriter]

^ I'm not really trying to 'prove anyone wrong' here, merely to demonstrate how and why I believe that the perception that Voyager doesn't have continuity and serialization is, in a lot of ways, an inaccurate one.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Well if you figure out how to do that, let me know.

 

[MakeshiftPython]

The first two seasons is probably the only time the show seriously had a story arc going with the Kazons and Seska. I admire the attempt, but I don't think they did a good job and they certainly didn't conclude it well either.

 

[Melakon]

. . .One character I wish they had kept was Suder. He would have been VOY's Garak. . . Such a shame he was killed off, as Brad Dourif was a huge bucket of win for VOY to get. . .

Suder could have been VOY's equivalent of Reginald Barclay without being a nincompoop character. They could have brought him back just once a year, and he could still wind up being the ever spooky guy. If they'd really wanted to give him a big arc finish, they could have had him nearly normalized, then suddenly Borgified, yet still manages to help destroy a cube.

 

[Anwar]

But isn't that the point VOY's premise indicates it should be a televised novel (to use your phrase), yet we didn't get that. So it could be said it failed to live upto it's premise.

What about Voyager indicated it'd be a televised Novel? They never stuck around long enough to flesh out any regions, there were no bigger plots beyond "Go home", there was nothing beyond them traveling (and whenever they tried for more they had no positive praise to show for it).

Nothing in there suggests "Televised Novel".

 

[DigificWriter]

What about Voyager indicated it'd be a televised Novel? They never stuck around long enough to flesh out any regions, there were no bigger plots beyond "Go home", there was nothing beyond them traveling (and whenever they tried for more they had no positive praise to show for it).

Nothing in there suggests "Televised Novel".

Have you read the Voyager Series Bible? Because I have, and the series was originally intended to focus more on the Maquis/Starfleet tensions, the crew's struggles to keep the ship operational, and recurring story arcs such as their encounters with Delta Quadrant species like the Kazon.

 

[Melakon]

A series bible isn't the same as the Ten Commandments. It's suggestions for characters, relationships, sets, and possible story ideas. Stephen Edward Poe's A Vision of the Future - Star Trek: Voyager gives a lot of information on the initial development of the show and first season while he hung around the set for several weeks.

 

[Anwar]

Well, let's be honest here. The Fleet/Maquis tensions were never going to last much more than 1-2 seasons at the very most.

Unless they were crippled, they'd always move past any antagonistic aliens they ran into, so they'd never last either.

As for repairs to the ship, they have replicators and all the energy they'd ever need constantly around them (Suns, Nebulas, Cosmic radiation) to power said Replicators.

None of that screams "TeleNovel" because there's no real plot. There's nothing keeping them around, there's no big adventures, there's no real external plot to drive stories and character development.