The Confusing Case of Captain Pike's Chronological Age

[Boris Skrbic]

I'm cool with going right around this actor's actual age as opposed to any other BTS notes or suppositions based on dialogue.

But the dialogue is part of the storytelling continuity, while an actor’s age isn’t. From IMDb:

Captain Christopher Pike : We met at the Academy. Been a couple thousand light-years since then.

Philippa Georgiou : Indeed.

Captain Christopher Pike : You were a force to be reckoned with. Sharpest tool in the shed. And despite being able to drink any of us under the table, you had every regulation down by week two.
​

The last sentence especially suggests a level of familiarity shared by cadets in the same class, so even Georgiou’s own birth year of 2202 would be an option, though we could stretch it a bit to 2205 and imagine stories being told about the older Georgiou at parties.

 

[Campe]

It is a throwaway line that has no bearing on the character or his relationships. Honestly, until I came into this thread, I forgot about it. Phillipa and Pike’s relationship throughout the rest of the season is a minor thing as it seems that Pike and Leland ends up being more important. Of course, being that it’s not the Phillipa Pike would actually have known, that makes sense.

Regardless, the line can easily be ignored. Kinda like how no one ever talks about Vulcan being conquered.

 

[TJ Sinclair]

It is a throwaway line that has no bearing on the character or his relationships. Honestly, until I came into this thread, I forgot about it. Phillipa and Pike’s relationship throughout the rest of the season is a minor thing as it seems that Pike and Leland ends up being more important. Of course, being that it’s not the Phillipa Pike would actually have known, that makes sense.

Regardless, the line can easily be ignored. Kinda like how no one ever talks about Vulcan being conquered.

That's mostly fair. However, since we have so little to go on about Pike's history at present, it *is* a valid data point and telling people to just ignore it is more than a bit reductive. Until we have more data, it's as valid as anything else.

As with all of this, we'll have to see how they address things going forward.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

It is a throwaway line that has no bearing on the character or his relationships.

It places one key DSC character in clear relation to another, so why should that be less important than Mount’s own age in S2 (but not “Q&A”, which is set years before?), especially since we know that people live longer and characters like Picard can be much older than their actors?

 

[Campe]

That's mostly fair. However, since we have so little to go on about Pike's history at present, it *is* a valid data point and telling people to just ignore it is more than a bit reductive. Until we have more data, it's as valid as anything else.

As with all of this, we'll have to see how they address things going forward.

That’s fair. I guess I’m just okay with lines and plot points that seem fascinating on their surface and go nowhere. But then again, I think canon is taken far, far, FAR too seriously by some fans. Ultimately, I’m mostly here (watching Trek and being on TBBS) to be entertained. Not to worry about the eensy weensy details.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Ultimately, I’m mostly here (watching Trek and being on TBBS) to be entertained. Not to worry about the eensy weensy details.

But you don’t explain why the writers should ignore the above bit of dialogue in favor of Mount’s own age in S2. Why does it matter so much?

It’s not OK to treat Mount’s age in S2 (but not “Q&A”) as some kind of obvious, default position, then look for ways to make it happen even if it means ignoring dialogue and even criticizing viewers for paying attention. An older line of dialogue can always be ignored or reinterpreted by writers in order to introduce a major new story point (as with Bashir’s father’s occupation), but that’s not the case here.

 

[Campe]

But you don’t explain why the writers should ignore the above bit of dialogue in favor of Mount’s own age in S2. Why does it matter so much?

Because there’s conflicting information here to begin with. Pike being about Kirk’s age from “The Menagerie.” The 2009 Pike obviously being older than Jeffrey Hunter’s. This Georgiou thing. At this point, you can’t take anything seriously that’s presented onscreen in regards to his age. It’s a conundrum indeed. And one that doesn’t really take away from the enjoyment. So because of all this conundrum-ness, why can’t he just be around Mount’s age?

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Because there is no need for such a drastic, “I give up” solution. In case of apparent inconsistencies, some datapoints are usually more reliable than others.

Pike being about Kirk’s age from “The Menagerie.”

So Mendez calculates incorrectly how old Pike was thirteen years before and even misspeaks to suggest that Pike and Kirk were born around the same time. Clearly this is much less reliable than Pike’s specific recollections of Georgiou.

The 2009 Pike obviously being older than Jeffrey Hunter’s.

Greenwood’s Pike looks older than Hunter’s Pike, while Hunter’s Pike in turn has been retconned off by Mount’s in “Q&A”, so in the end it doesn’t matter what Hunter’s looked like. The year 2205 has been proposed by an official movie app, while Georgiou was born in 2202.

 

[Tim Thomason]

But the dialogue is part of the storytelling continuity, while an actor’s age isn’t. From IMDb:

Captain Christopher Pike : We met at the Academy. Been a couple thousand light-years since then.

Philippa Georgiou : Indeed.

Captain Christopher Pike : You were a force to be reckoned with. Sharpest tool in the shed. And despite being able to drink any of us under the table, you had every regulation down by week two.
​

The last sentence especially suggests a level of familiarity shared by cadets in the same class, so even Georgiou’s own birth year of 2202 would be an option, though we could stretch it a bit to 2205 and imagine stories being told about the older Georgiou at parties.

Or maybe Georgiou was born in 2219.

2202 only comes from an early okudagram (on the same level of Janeway's 2344 birth year) and later dialogue now puts her at the age as Pike (whatever that is).

 

[Campe]

I’ve spent more time on this topic than I ever intended. All I’m saying is: At the end of the day, it doesn’t matter TO ME. I offered a different solution. You can argue til your blue in the face.

 

[fireproof78]

It is a throwaway line that has no bearing on the character or his relationships. Honestly, until I came into this thread, I forgot about it. Phillipa and Pike’s relationship throughout the rest of the season is a minor thing as it seems that Pike and Leland ends up being more important. Of course, being that it’s not the Phillipa Pike would actually have known, that makes sense.

Regardless, the line can easily be ignored. Kinda like how no one ever talks about Vulcan being conquered.

Yup.

 

[Timo]

Placing Pike and Georgiou at the Academy at the same time should require no effort from us or the writers, since there are no constraints.

- You can try and enter at an early age, there being no limitation on "early age" as such.
- You can try and enter at an advanced age, there again being no limitation.
- There are no career details on Pike that we would need to cram into his post-Academy pseudohistory in a timeline-relevant manner: his Okudagram service record lacks dates, and only has a stardate for his graduating class, too. All we see in writing is that he has been on the Enterprise since 2250.

Georgiou's birthdate and Academy years thus are the Okudagram-fixed things that everything else can freely rotate around. Having Pike's Academy years intersect with Georgiou's 2220-2224 works with any Pike birthdate prior to 2210, say.

But deciding that the two never met is perfectly fine as well, because Pike knows Georgiou is an impostor, and we are never told when exactly he learned this. Pike takes impossibilities on the stride, barely blinking at the spore drive, resurrections or time crystals; he might have fabricated career details there and then to test this fake Georgiou. Heck, coming into that scene, he already knows for a fact that the real McCoy is dead as a dodo, and has been given no good data to disabuse himself of that notion.

The Emperor for her part would be incapable by birth of blinking, and OTOH wouldn't have bothered to memorize the career of her inferior half. She might not even realize she got caught there. But even if she eventually does, this needn't be reflected in her last exchange of "revelations" and winks with Pike, which really works better if both know the other knows the other knows the other knows the...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tim Thomason]

Plus, the two lines posted above from Pike don't really state outright that they were Cadets together (even in "week 2").

Pike gives us three points:

1. "We met at the Academy." <- Could be as Cadets, could be two years ago at a conference for the most decorated Captains in Starfleet.

2. "You were a force to be reckoned with. Sharpest tool in the shed." <- This is all just reputation and nothing Pike has to witness firsthand.

3. "And despite being able to drink any of us under the table, you had every regulation down by week two." <- Again, reputation. Pike, who had at least one public F on his record is complementing the memory (note the past tense) of a fallen comrade who had amazing academic skills, despite a reputation for drunkenness.

The use of "us" is what trips people up, implying Pike was there in Week 2, and that this coincides with his earlier statement that he met her at the Academy. I think, perhaps, by "us" Pike is referring to the generic Starfleet cadet who wouldn't be able to keep up with both her partying and academics (probably because he tried and failed in later years). He's standing next to Michael when he says with "us", so if he's including her (not that she went to the Academy...), then he’s definitely speaking in generalities.

The whole conversation is later revealed to be an identification test by Pike. He notes odd discrepancies in Georgiou's file. There's a pause when he notes about her retirement. Is it because he knows something only Captains know? Or he obviously recalls the fact that Georgiou's death (and Michael's mutiny) started the whole war of last year, and Georgiou's miraculous return doesn't pass the smell test?

Pike is the kind of guy who plays a friendly game of poker at a high stakes table. He knows much more than he ever says, and whatever he says is suspect, especially when he's dealing with a Section 31 agent of unknown origin claiming to be someone he may (or may not have) met.

 

[Ronald Held]

If you are going to pick and choose which data to accept, why not have Pike around Kirk's age in The Cage?

 

[TJ Sinclair]

If you are going to pick and choose which data to accept, why not have Pike around Kirk's age in The Cage?

Because that contradicts even more facts, there are real-world factors to consider about that line versus solely in-universe, and it is literally the single data point most open to interpretation in this entire discussion?

Your question really has the tone of someone playing devil's advocate just to troll or try and "score points" in some way.

 

[Stevil2001]

I really want people to articulate to me what aspect of the story has been lost due to not knowing the age. I have no doubt there such details are helpful with world building I often struggle with needing to know a character's age in order to engage with them or the story.

That's just me though. I'm that weird guy who thought Spock was the most identifiable character and he was part alien!

Is anyone saying some aspect of the story has been lost? I find timelining a fun game to play. I can acknowledge that in a big shared universe there are going to be contradictions that I just shrug off, but also enjoy the puzzle of trying to see a way out of them.

Anyway, clearly Pike kept a little bit of time crystal in his pocket when he went to the time moon and it really played havoc with his timeline. He was Kirk's age for a while, and that's when Mendez met him, but he got better.

 

[Tim Thomason]

It's too bad that it was too early in the episode, otherwise I could just claim that it was actually Talosian!Mendez not understanding how human aging works again.

 

[Campe]

Anyway, clearly Pike kept a little bit of time crystal in his pocket when he went to the time moon and it really played havoc with his timeline. He was Kirk's age for a while, and that's when Mendez met him, but he got better.

Ah, the fanon!

 

[MAGolding]

It's too bad that it was too early in the episode, otherwise I could just claim that it was actually Talosian!Mendez not understanding how human aging works again.

Of course the Talosians apaprently reached across light years from Talos IV to Starbase 11 to make an illusion of Mendez seem to board the shuttle craft with KIrk. So it is possible that Mendez was an illusion every time he was seen in the episode. And maybe the Talosians created two illusionary radio messages to lure the Enterprise to Talos IV from 18 light years away in "The Cage".

 

[Timo]

They necessarily did all that, and more: somehow, they kept Kirk in the dark about Pike's fate for months before the episode even started!

I mean, yeah, perhaps Spock could somehow sabotage comms to this effect. But he wouldn't be the first to catch the gossip, and it would be way too late for him to try and contain it by technological means once Uhura or Palmer had their first coffee break. Clearly, the Talosians had everybody duped out to a range of dozens of lightyears. All we need to wonder about is whether this was something they could always trivially do, or something they needed Spock as a local amplifier for... ("If Memory Serves" sorta suggests Pike could be such an amplifier, or at least specifically tuned to serve as a receiver.)

Timo Saloniemi