The commandent of Rura Penthe

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Exactly.

all of the movies suffered from similar issues

No, while all the movies possess their share of problems, none of the previous movie contain the shear volume of plot holes and inconsistency as Star Trek Eleven.

TMP - Enterprise is the only ship in the quadrant. Really?
Not really, this was never stated.

Actually, yes it was, twice (no specific "quadrant" text, but even worse, a generic we're the only ship...period).

The first, with Scotty grousing about sending out an untested ship, Kirk responds:
"Mr. Scott, there's an alien object with unbelievable destructive power less than three days away from this planet. The only Starship in interception range is the Enterprise! Ready, or not, she launches in twelve hours!"

Also, during the main briefing in the dimensionally transcendental rec-dec:
"That's all we know about it; except that it's now 2.2 days from Earth. Enterprise is the only Federation starship that stands in its way."

No mention of the more advanced nature of the Enterprise as a reason to send her out early. No mention of the seniority of a tested crew. Nothing. Just the only ship. From Earth to Qo'Nos. Pffft!

TWOK - They used that one [only ship in the quadrant] for this too
How so?

This already explained by previous poster.

When exactly did the Romulans get Picard's DNA to make Shinzon?
Likely when Picard was a younger man, how did the Romulans actual get and transport his "genetic matter," in the words of Robert Heinlein, the Romulans probably wrapped a woman around it.

I'll concede this one. Those pesky Tal Shiar...

TWOK - They used that one for this too, but there's also the Chekov thing, Khan's insignia badge, Joachim, Khan's quickly-obtained knowledge of late 23rd century starship systems, etc.

What "Chekov thing?" And what exactly is wrong with Joachim?

The "I never forget a face" bit and the fact that none of Khan's original followers seem to have been represented by many appropriately-aged actors. they were all extremely young, coupled with the mentioning of a character by the same name as in "Space Seed". ALL the statements about different spellings, or the younger Joachim being Khan's son named after his Lieutenant are all non-canonical speculation.

Another single Borg cube going into the Federation on its own? Why not a fleet or a bunch of tactical cubes and finish them off once and for all?

Because this isn't Trek Literature.

I don't quite get this statement. Is this to imply that Trek literature makes more sense than what is shown on screen? Should we settle for less on screen than in a book? Please explain.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

^ Even a non-canonical explanation is still an explanation. And given the circumstances, it's the ONLY explanation we are going to get, so it may as well be 'official'.

 

[The Wormhole]

The "I never forget a face" bit

Sad as this is to admit, but I actually forgot about "I never forget a face." I must be losing my touch.

I don't quite get this statement. Is this to imply that Trek literature makes more sense than what is shown on screen? Should we settle for less on screen than in a book? Please explain.

It's primarily a referance to a recent novel which did feature the Borg sending a fleet to engage in a wholesale slaughter of the Federation. It's mainly a (perhaps too) subtle insult of the books and how they handled the concept. That's all.

Honestly, I don't think on-screen Trek needs to show Starfleet taking on an entire fleet of Borg cubes, but if that's your thing, then the novels are where you'll see this play out.

 

[137th Gebirg]

^^^ Gotcha. I wouldn't consider it "my thing", as the way they handled it was a seemingly necessary means by which to advance the story in a certain direction. My point was simply that all the movies had their flaws and require a certain level of disbelief to take them in. Yes, some more than others, but none of the films can be held blameless.

^ Even a non-canonical explanation is still an explanation. And given the circumstances, it's the ONLY explanation we are going to get, so it may as well be 'official'.

While, in spirit, I would generally agree with this concept, it has also been shared by enough people as to be the source of most Trek-canon jihads on this and other BBS's. To avoid such needless arguments, I usually hold to the "if it's been on screen, it's canon; if it hasn't, it's not". This philosophy generally works, but it also occasionally gets me in trouble from time to time when talking about the Animated Series, however. Damn Roddenberry and his feud with D.C. Fontana!

 

[Timo]

One fairly obvious reason for Nero lying low would be that his ship alone cannot defeat fleets of warships.

That is, not until it is boosted with teh Awesome!! powers of red matter. Which Spock provides Nero with. And which arrives on his lap one hour before the reported frackas with the Klingon fleet, if we follow the timeline step by step.

If Nero could tackle 47 warbirds and 7-8 starships only when he had red matter at his disposal, and not before, then the 20-year wait would be mandatory. A jail sentence would not: the only reason Nero and the Klingons had a deathmatch might well be that Spock would arrive at roughly the same spatial coordinates as Nero originally did, which would mean extreme proximity to Klingon assets.

Since we saw neither the Klingon nor the Starfleet slaughter, we don't know how Nero did it. Using red matter as simple ammunition would probably work fine, and Nero would have plenty of it (because even Spock's original stopping of the supernova consumed barely a drop of the load). And the black holes that red matter creates on screen are not permanent and don't appear to leave traces - although red matter might also do something else when applied differently, and we couldn't tell because the mayhems were not shown on screen.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[M'Sharak]

Even without the Red Matter, Nero was pretty damn powerful, the fact he was able to wipe out an entire Klingon armada is testimony to that. So I simply cannot believe that he just sat around in deep space for over two decades and did absolutely nothing. There was an incident on a prison planet at around the same time Nero destroyed the Klingons... <snip>

Which incident was that? Where in the movie was it seen or described?

It's mentioned in the scene when Uhura returns to her dorm room while Kirk is in bed with Gaila.

Is it, though? While it's made quite clear by what Uhura says that 47 Klingon ships were destroyed, I don't think the same can be said of a second incident on the Klingon prison planet (be it Rura Penthe or some other.) Going by the dialogue in that scene, what is clearly stated is that the intercepted transmission originated there, but no more than that.

 

[Timo]

Yup - the movie only mentions one prison planet incident, which is the battle where 47 warships were lost to a Romulan attacker. Nothing is said about prisoners being involved in the incident, or about the incident having aspects other than the space battle.

Since the prison planet was able to send that emergency message about the battle, we might just as well deduce that Nero didn't attack the prison planet. If he'd done that, odds are that he would have been doing his usual jamming schtick, and there would have been no message. In the final cut of the movie, then, we could argue that the Klingon planet being a "prison" one was only incidental "local color" to emphasize how the Klingons are cruel villains and good riddance, and bore no plot significance as such.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[kkozoriz1]

However Nero did it it must have been pretty spectacular. He took out all the Starfleet ships in a matter of minutes before the Enterprise arrived. He could have taken out the Klingons in an hour or less.

 

[FormerLurker]

Khan's quickly-obtained knowledge of late 23rd century starship systems, etc.

This was covered in "Space Seed."

One fairly obvious reason for Nero lying low would be that his ship alone cannot defeat fleets of warships.

That is, not until it is boosted with teh Awesome!! powers of red matter. Which Spock provides Nero with. And which arrives on his lap one hour before the reported frackas with the Klingon fleet, if we follow the timeline step by step.

If Nero could tackle 47 warbirds and 7-8 starships only when he had red matter at his disposal, and not before, then the 20-year wait would be mandatory. A jail sentence would not: the only reason Nero and the Klingons had a deathmatch might well be that Spock would arrive at roughly the same spatial coordinates as Nero originally did, which would mean extreme proximity to Klingon assets.

Since we saw neither the Klingon nor the Starfleet slaughter, we don't know how Nero did it. Using red matter as simple ammunition would probably work fine, and Nero would have plenty of it (because even Spock's original stopping of the supernova consumed barely a drop of the load). And the black holes that red matter creates on screen are not permanent and don't appear to leave traces - although red matter might also do something else when applied differently, and we couldn't tell because the mayhems were not shown on screen.

Timo Saloniemi

I like this explanation.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

One fairly obvious reason for Nero lying low would be that his ship alone cannot defeat fleets of warships.

I always thought that since the Narada managed to very nearly destroy ONE ship (the Kelvin) with total ease, it wouldn't be much of a stretch for this to be applied to a whole fleet.

If it would have been possible for a fleet of Starfleet vessels to destroy or damage the Narada, then shouldn't the Kelvin have been a bit more effective? None of its weapons made even the slightest HINT of damage. It had to RAM the Narada to do anything. If the K can't do anything, then a whole fleet couldn't, either.

 

[EJA]

I don't think Nero had the Red Matter yet when he fought the Klingon fleet.

 

[Timo]

But the Kelvin didn't appear to fire at the Narada much, if at all. The fire we saw was purely defensive - aimed at Nero's missiles rather than at his ship.

Most of the Starfleet ships we saw had torpedo tubes; the Kelvin did not. Had Nero faced an aggressive Starfleet vessel that fired torpedoes and phasers at full bore, his ship might have been destroyed relatively quickly, judging by the Kelvin incident where the sum total of defensive fire from the Narada utterly failed to stop the Kelvin from ramming despite there being something like two minutes to complete the job (one after the shuttles had escaped but before Kirk had commenced ramming, one during the actual ramming run).

Timo Saloniemi