The Clone Wars: good clones vs. bad droids?

[Gaith]

(I know, I know - here comes yet another PT-SW thread, but this is a question I haven't seen polled, and am curious as to the results...)



To me, one of the worst flaws of the PT - one which not only prevents me from getting into the animated shows but also means I can no longer enjoy even fan-edited versions of the films - is GL's disastrous formulation of the Clone Wars as good clones vs. bad droids. I've given the following reasons for why this doesn't wash before, but here they are again:


1. The droids are too advanced to fit with the OT universe. Period. I've heard all the apologist rebuttals, and they're all crap. There's no way that such models as droidekas would have been discontinued had they been around in the OT's past. (And yes, I know that GL came up with 'em as a way of avoiding having the heroic Jedi slicing up living beings right and left, but that doesn't excuse the continuity error.)


2. Droids are far less scary and interesting than living beings. They make for dull and soulless opponents.


3. Boba Fett was always assumed to be of no particular galactic significance. Having people who look exactly like him make up half the Clone Wars eviscerates his mystique and is such a hard fanwank it practically breaks the fourth wall every time it comes up.


4. Evil droids aren't mentioned in Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, which is as vital as the OT to my personal SW canon. (Nor are any cloning apparatuses besides "Spaarti cylinders." Was it really so necessary to use the name "Kamino" in the PT instead? Not that I really care, what with the droids and all, but still.)


5. Just because it's the "Clone" Wars doesn't mean all the clones half to share the same genetic source. Per the Thrawn trilogy again, there ought to be different clones for pilots, fighters, etc... and even maybe Sith apprentices? I'd like to see maybe a dozen or so clone templates - enough to make for some interesting inter-clone interactions, but not so many that we don't readily recognize them as clones.


6. Having both major combatant forces be manufactured outsiders cheapens the impact of the whole Wars in the first place. In the Thrawn trilogy, even relatively neutral characters shudder when they think of the devastation caused. And you can bring up as many CW eps showing other planets' involvement as you like; the movies and series still show the vast, vast majority of all the combatants as either clones or droids, so it's too late for piecemeal revisionism on that count.


Feel free to take issue with any of these points, but let me warn up front that my views on the matter are set, so I'm not necessarily going to defend them any more than I have above. As I said, I'm most interested in the poll... That said, I also look forward to seeing others debate the points if y'all like.

 

[Set Harth]

In the Thrawn trilogy, even relatively neutral characters shudder when they think of the devastation caused. And you can bring up as many CW eps showing other planets' involvement as you like; the movies and series still show the vast, vast majority of all the combatants as either clones or droids, so it's too late for piecemeal revisionism on that count.

Having the combatants as clones and droids doesn't preclude devastation. Didn't Grievous basically destroy a whole planet at one point, according to some source? ROTS features droids attacking a force comprised of clones and native aliens. And we don't see shuddering at Clone Wars devastation during the OT, but we do see anti-droid sentiment, which fits nicely with "evil droid" depredations.

I've heard all the apologist rebuttals, and they're all crap.

I suspect Palpatine doesn't want anyone else coming to power the same way he did.

 

[-Brett-]

The name "Clone Wars" implies that clones or cloning was a driving force behind the war. As it is, the clones were basically hapless tools. You don't generally name a war after the tools used. Usually it's in reference to it's location or the issues behind it.

 

[The Wormhole]

3. Boba Fett was always assumed to be of no particular galactic significance. Having people who look exactly like him make up half the Clone Wars eviscerates his mystique and is such a hard fanwank it practically breaks the fourth wall every time it comes up.

Even before the prequel trilogy came along, Boba Fett did have a reputation building as the galaxy's most badass bounty hunter. Mind you, I agree it was a mistake to make him a clone of the same guy who provided the genetic template for the clonetroopers, but I would not say he was of no galactic significance.

4. Evil droids aren't mentioned in Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, which is as vital as the OT to my personal SW canon. (Nor are any cloning apparatuses besides "Spaarti cylinders." Was it really so necessary to use the name "Kamino" in the PT instead? Not that I really care, what with the droids and all, but still.)

Your personal views aside, the Thrawn trilogy is not canon, and Lucas is not required to adhere to that.

5. Just because it's the "Clone" Wars doesn't mean all the clones half to share the same genetic source. Per the Thrawn trilogy again, there ought to be different clones for pilots, fighters, etc... and even maybe Sith apprentices? I'd like to see maybe a dozen or so clone templates - enough to make for some interesting inter-clone interactions, but not so many that we don't readily recognize them as clones.

You might be onto something here. My guess is since the majority of clonetroopers were seen in face-obscuring helmets it wasn't felt necessary to get more than one actor to provide the voice or pose for the occasional helmet-less scene.

6. Having both major combatant forces be manufactured outsiders cheapens the impact of the whole Wars in the first place. In the Thrawn trilogy, even relatively neutral characters shudder when they think of the devastation caused. And you can bring up as many CW eps showing other planets' involvement as you like; the movies and series still show the vast, vast majority of all the combatants as either clones or droids, so it's too late for piecemeal revisionism on that count.

Clones and droids does not preclude devastation. Example, as a result of the battles planets may have been permanentally damaged and so on. Plus, not everyone was a clone or a droid. And finally the Clone Wars did end with the Jedi being wiped out and the Empire taking over, which I'm sure would be considered devastating for years to come.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

To me, one of the worst flaws of the PT - one which not only prevents me from getting into the animated shows but also means I can no longer enjoy even fan-edited versions of the films - is GL's disastrous formulation of the Clone Wars as good clones vs. bad droids. I've given the following reasons for why this doesn't wash before, but here they are again:

This is definitely a valid argument, even if clones v. droids doesn't really bother me overmuch. Or to put it another way, it's waaaay down the list of things I'd want changed from the PT (the first being giving Williams a chance to rescore AOTC). But one of the reasons that it's not that much of an issue for me is that I don't see it strictly as "good" clones v. "bad" battle droids. In the PT, they're both canon fodder and it's their commanders - Yoda, Anakin, Obi-Wan v. Dooku, Sidious, Grievous that I focus on.

1. The droids are too advanced to fit with the OT universe. Period. I've heard all the apologist rebuttals, and they're all crap. There's no way that such models as droidekas would have been discontinued had they been around in the OT's past. (And yes, I know that GL came up with 'em as a way of avoiding having the heroic Jedi slicing up living beings right and left, but that doesn't excuse the continuity error.)

I'm not sure if "too advanced" is the issue; rather it's one of continuity. It's interesting that there are almost no advanced, militant droids in the OT (only IG88 comes to mind right away). Perhaps the continuity can be explained as a bias against battle droids following the Clone Wars. But that is a fan's explanation, and not one found (or explained) in the films.

2. Droids are far less scary and interesting than living beings. They make for dull and soulless opponents.

Is C-3PO soulless? Is he??? Oh yeah ... he is.

3. Boba Fett was always assumed to be of no particular galactic significance. Having people who look exactly like him make up half the Clone Wars eviscerates his mystique and is such a hard fanwank it practically breaks the fourth wall every time it comes up.

From what I recall, the mystique surrounding Fett did in fact point to some "significance" if only for the notion that he's about the only one to not simply cower in fear of Vader. But using Jango Fett as the source of all the clones in AOTC is problematic at best. Especially considering his presence on Geonosis -- meaning that he'd have to have been privy to the plans of Sidious. He was literally on both sides of the conflict. And it makes no sense for him to be.

4. Evil droids aren't mentioned in Zahn's Thrawn trilogy, which is as vital as the OT to my personal SW canon. (Nor are any cloning apparatuses besides "Spaarti cylinders." Was it really so necessary to use the name "Kamino" in the PT instead? Not that I really care, what with the droids and all, but still.)

As much as I enjoyed the Zahn's books, I don't think any continuity between them and the PT is all that important.

5. Just because it's the "Clone" Wars doesn't mean all the clones half to share the same genetic source. Per the Thrawn trilogy again, there ought to be different clones for pilots, fighters, etc... and even maybe Sith apprentices? I'd like to see maybe a dozen or so clone templates - enough to make for some interesting inter-clone interactions, but not so many that we don't readily recognize them as clones.

This is a pretty good point. Why only one genetic source? Perhaps it comes down to the cost of having to genetically alter the DNA from the source, making multiple sources prohibitive? But even if that were the case, it ought to have been explained in the films somewhere.

6. Having both major combatant forces be manufactured outsiders cheapens the impact of the whole Wars in the first place. In the Thrawn trilogy, even relatively neutral characters shudder when they think of the devastation caused. And you can bring up as many CW eps showing other planets' involvement as you like; the movies and series still show the vast, vast majority of all the combatants as either clones or droids, so it's too late for piecemeal revisionism on that count.

Well, on the one hand I'd say you can't bring up the Zahn books to support your point of view and then dismiss the CW shows as support against your point of view. At the very least, Lucas himself is overseeing the CW series. That being said, your point is valid. Clones v. the galaxy would have been much more sinister. The clones functioning almost as zombies in their relentless attack would have been both terrifying and devastating.

Feel free to take issue with any of these points, but let me warn up front that my views on the matter are set, so I'm not necessarily going to defend them any more than I have above. As I said, I'm most interested in the poll... That said, I also look forward to seeing others debate the points if y'all like.

I can't remember reading this anywhere else, so I need to ask: What would you have done differently that would have more or less fit into the framework of the PT story?

 

[Mr Light]

There should have been a mix on both sides, not just clones versus droids. In the books they do have regular human/alien soldiers on both sides. The Clone Wars toon makes it too simple (of course that's because it's a kid's show and they can't get too violent).

 

[Whofan]

Boba Fett as a Stormtrooper was actually based on an idea from the Dark Empire trilogy (According to the AOTC art book).


BTW Although battle droids do not show up in the OT apart from IG-88 (Who the Clone Wars 'toons have established as coming from the PT era), there are several in the EU, such as in the KOTOR games, which take place 4000+ years before! And also in the OT-era and post-ROTJ stuff. There's even a game built around special droid stormtroopers.

 

[Caliburn24]

Clones should have been on both sides, battle droids should have been non-existent or extremely rare and expensive(and still stupid).

More importantly there should have been a real motivation for the war and some sort of triggering event that made sense. One man controlling both sides to form his own empire? Interesting, but why bother when you already command both sides? Just assassinate those few senators that oppose you and avoid the war.

We have had countless empires and dynasties as examples from Earth's history, none of those resemble the overly complex and horribly elaborate plotting of Palpatine.

 

[Whofan]

Palpatine's manipulation is seen in ROTJ as well:


"It is *I* who allowed the allowance to know the location of the shield generator."


The Force Unleashed game also implies he had a role in the formation of the Rebel alliance in the first place, but it got out of hand.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Boba Fett as a Stormtrooper was actually based on an idea from the Dark Empire trilogy (According to the AOTC art book).

No. His design was always suppose to be for some kind of elite stormtrooper. His original origin back in ESB was a former member of the "imperial shocktroopers".

 

[Hound of UIster]

One man controlling both sides to form his own empire? Interesting, but why bother when you already command both sides? Just assassinate those few senators that oppose you and avoid the war.

The purpose of accumulating power and building an empire was only a secondary objective of the Clone Wars. Their primary objective was a means to destroy the jedi.

 

[Caliburn24]

Why destroy the Jedi? I'm no fan of the EU stuff anymore, and if it was laid out in the films I must have missed it.

Also if destroying the Jedi was Palpatine's goal, one fair size space cruiser, disabling a few planetary alarms and a suicide run with the cruiser into the Jedi Temple when the Council was in session would have done that.

 

[Whofan]

^Well, he is a Sith Lord, so the Jedi are his enemies naturally.

Also it was established in ANH that the Jedi were almost all dead.

 

[Caliburn24]

I know Palps hated the Jedi and wiped them out as we saw on screen. But it is more of a stretch to then say that the main purpose of the Clone War was to scatter the Jedi and place clones around all of them who would at some time be given an order to kill them(And as cool as the Order 66 scene was I dislike the implications it raises about the clones being people incapable of free choice).

If that were the case it was a needlessly complex, mind boggling long term, and hugely overpriced plot that could have been done in much simpler less costly ways. And it had all sorts of weakness that could have made it fail.

 

[Hound of UIster]

Needlessy complicated perhaps. But then I think using the Clone Wars to make himself Emperor fits into the same category seeing how he was already in control of the Republic and the corporations.

Why destroy the Jedi? I'm no fan of the EU stuff anymore, and if it was laid out in the films I must have missed it.

Darth Maul: At last we will reveal ourselves to the Jedi. At last we will have our revenge

 

[Whofan]

Another factor about Palpatine using the clones is that at the time of the prequels, the Republic had disbanded it's army and was mainly composed of planetary defenses (Like Naboo's) and the Jedi. Lucas's version of events is that the Republic had abandoned it's army after a devestating war with the Sith.

So in order to justify creating an army, he needed an oppossing army-The Seperatist's army of droids. The Seperatists BTW are mainly businessmen (As we see in the films, they include TPM's Trade Federation as well as various other corporatations), hence their need for cheap fighting droids.


I think part of the contradictions that many have with the EU is that the Stormtroopers were thought by Zahn and West End Games to be mainly an 'elite' force, with the black-suited, clam-helmeted troopers seen at various points in the OT representing the real Imperial army . Of course the prequels flipped this around totally, with the troopers being the regular force, and the elite being the black-helmeted troopers.

 

[Gaith]

Guys, please keep the discussion from a real-world POV, and somewhat OP-related. Palps' psychology enters into neither.

I'm not sure if "too advanced" is the issue; rather it's one of continuity.

You say "tomatoe"...

Is C-3PO soulless? Is he??? Oh yeah ... he is.

He has pesonality for sure, but no apparent capcity for maturation and/or change, which to me is a perquisite for having a soul.

Well, on the one hand I'd say you can't bring up the Zahn books to support your point of view and then dismiss the CW shows as support against your point of view.

Sure I can. I'm The Flanelled One of my personal SW canon.

Clones v. the galaxy would have been much more sinister. The clones functioning almost as zombies in their relentless attack would have been both terrifying and devastating.

I can't remember reading this anywhere else, so I need to ask: What would you have done differently that would have more or less fit into the framework of the PT story?

I've given general thoughts on how to have made a better PT here and here. As for better continuity with the Thrawn trilogy, no battle droids or Rule of Two would have been an excellent start, and hiring Zahn as a story co-writer if not outright writer would have done nicely also.

 

[Silvercrest]

Clones v. the galaxy would have been much more sinister. The clones functioning almost as zombies in their relentless attack would have been both terrifying and devastating.

True. And we might have actually heard the words "Lucas" and "Brains!" uttered in proximity. Unlike what we got.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Is C-3PO soulless? Is he??? Oh yeah ... he is.

He has pesonality for sure, but no apparent capcity for maturation and/or change, which to me is a perquisite for having a soul.

Quite true. Though, advanced droids with souls would, actually, have been kinda interesting. Life without midichlorians. Would that have satisfied at least half of your objections (the OT continuity would still be an issue, of course)?

Sure I can. I'm The Flanelled One of my personal SW canon.

Good point. And I think I said something relatively recently about a "personal canon" so ... touché.

I've given general thoughts on how to have made a better PT here and here. As for better continuity with the Thrawn trilogy, no battle droids or Rule of Two would have been an excellent start, and hiring Zahn as a story co-writer if not outright writer would have done nicely also.

I actually like the idea of presenting the PT as a b&w film. It never would have been taken seriously -- and would have engendered its own fervent criticisms -- but it would have been a fascinating exercise in cinema craft. Well, that or Star Wars 3D.

 

[Gaith]

Is C-3PO soulless? Is he??? Oh yeah ... he is.

He has pesonality for sure, but no apparent capcity for maturation and/or change, which to me is a perquisite for having a soul.

Quite true. Though, advanced droids with souls would, actually, have been kinda interesting. Life without midichlorians. Would that have satisfied at least half of your objections (the OT continuity would still be an issue, of course)?

Nah, I like my androids one at a time: Data, Ash/Bishop. Even if robots develop sentience/souls, they're still pretty far removed from humanity in key respects (injuries, reproductive urges, romance, mortality and the fea thereof, etc.) I'd much rather have evil clones than any kind of droids.

Besides, it's called the Clone Wars, not the Clone-Droid/Android wards.



Let's have some more poll votes, people!