The Clone Wars: good clones vs. bad droids?

[Temis the Vorta]

For whatever reason, ever since I first saw the OT I figured that the Clone Wars were about clones, but not necessarily fought by clones, kinda the way the Civil War was about slavery but largely not fought by slaves or former slaves.

It would have been fairly easy to come up with a plausible scenario whereby some world group of worlds start churning out clones to use as slave labor, and that don't set well with the Republic, but those worlds disagree and decide to secede. That starts a war that the Jedi can then be on the unambiguous good side of, and be utterly opposed to the sick notion that it's okay to manufacture people for any reason, much less combat.

That way, it doesn't have to be a war contrived by Palps, but just taken advantage of by Palps. I don't like the idea of the Jedi being so thoroughly made fools of throughout the whole PT. I'd prefer that they be given a bit more credit for perceptiveness and savvy.

What I definitely don't like is the use of droids as a "sanitized" way of depicting war. I'm pretty sure that's why Lucas decided to have the bad guys be droids, so it wouldn't upset the kiddies when they are slaughtered en masse or the Jedi run around lopping off heads and limbs. But is it really so healthy for kids to see sanitized violence like that? Wouldn't real violence, with real consequences, be preferable?

And to keep the Jedi from committing too much carnage, establish a rule that the use of violence by the Jedi, even in a good cause or self-defense, makes them just a little more prone to darkside-ism. That will force them to try to think of a non-violent way out of any situation and lead to more creative stories. And I wouldn't have them be generals, either - more like special forces with a lot of diplomatic responsibilities. Make them seem mysterious and special, and establish rules that tamp down the tendency towards over-reliance on lightsaber fights, which just get tiresome when overused.

2. Droids are far less scary and interesting than living beings. They make for dull and soulless opponents.

Droids could be just as real as any flesh and blood character. If Artoo were ever destroyed for good, and we knew that spunky little toaster would never return, wouldn't you be upset? I know I would be.

But since the droids were invented as mere things for the Jedi to slice 'n dice, they can't be permitted to be real characters, and that is the problem.

 

[Set Harth]

Perhaps the continuity can be explained as a bias against battle droids following the Clone Wars. But that is a fan's explanation, and not one found (or explained) in the films.

There was a throwaway line in the ROTS script that seemed to lean in that direction, but that's about it.

Especially considering his presence on Geonosis -- meaning that he'd have to have been privy to the plans of Sidious.

Not necessarily; he only knows as much as Dooku lets him know.

He was literally on both sides of the conflict. And it makes no sense for him to be.

He's a mercenary. They often work both sides of a conflict. It's a known fact, and has been the case for as long as there have been wars.

 

[Silvercrest]

Especially considering his presence on Geonosis -- meaning that he'd have to have been privy to the plans of Sidious.

Not necessarily; he only knows as much as Dooku lets him know.

He was literally on both sides of the conflict. And it makes no sense for him to be.

He's a mercenary. They often work both sides of a conflict. It's a known fact, and has been the case for as long as there have been wars.

It gives away too many things in this case. Jango was hired by Dooku to perform the assassination. After that, he went back to Kamino, helping set up a Republic clone army. After fleeing from Kamino, Jango headed straight to Geonosis to report to Dooku.

At this point the characters all know that the Sith are allied with the Separatists. They also know the establishment of the clone army is a setup and that someone did it under the table, for unknown reasons. And now they know that Jango is directly involved with both things.

Anyone with a lick of sense could put together that someone is manipulating both sides to artificially escalate the conflict, and that it's probably the Sith. From there it would not be a big leap to finger Palpatine as the person who gains the most by this whole thing. It might even be possible to avoid the war. The only reason the characters don't make this conclusion is because they're idiots.

This would never have been a concern if Dooku had just told Jango, "Look, do not come near me, do not come near Geonosis. I don't even know you. I'll double your fee if you just move out to the Outer Rim for the next ten years and raise Booboo or whatever his name is."

 

[Hound of UIster]

They also know the establishment of the clone army is a setup and that someone did it under the table, for unknown reasons.

They were told it was ordered by a jedi master of the council. They didnt know it was set up.

Anyone with a lick of sense could put together that someone is manipulating both sides to artificially escalate the conflict, and that it's probably the Sith.

Where is the evidence? Jango is dead. The only connection was that he was a hired gun for the separatists. Thats tenuous evidence seeing how he was a Bounty Hunter who worked for the highest bidder.

From there it would not be a big leap to finger Palpatine as the person who gains the most by this whole thing.

But he isn't the only one who stands to gain. Don't forget the corporations. Or the Jedi. Or the Kamino Aliens. Or the planets left in the Republic whose voting powers have increased now that a good chunk has seceded.

See the evidence pinning it on Palpatine was at best tenuous and the fact that the jedi couldn't detect him in the Force also played a part in fooling them.

 

[Gaith]

What I definitely don't like is the use of droids as a "sanitized" way of depicting war. I'm pretty sure that's why Lucas decided to have the bad guys be droids, so it wouldn't upset the kiddies when they are slaughtered en masse or the Jedi run around lopping off heads and limbs.

To quote myself, on why the PT should have been in black and white:

3. It could allow for more violence. GL obviously invented those hideously lame battle droids to avoid having the noble Jedi carving up living beings right and left. But if it'd all been b&w, that wouldn't have been nearly as gory or shocking. See: the b&w portion of the dojo fight in Kill Bill 1.

If Artoo were ever destroyed for good, and we knew that spunky little toaster would never return, wouldn't you be upset?

On the level of a dog dying, sure. Not nearly as much as if Chewie or Lando bit it.

For whatever reason, ever since I first saw the OT I figured that the Clone Wars were about clones, but not necessarily fought by clones, kinda the way the Civil War was about slavery but largely not fought by slaves or former slaves.

It would have been fairly easy to come up with a plausible scenario whereby some world group of worlds start churning out clones to use as slave labor, and that don't set well with the Republic, but those worlds disagree and decide to secede. That starts a war that the Jedi can then be on the unambiguous good side of, and be utterly opposed to the sick notion that it's okay to manufacture people for any reason, much less combat.

An interesting idea. Not sure I fully support it, but full points for original thinking, and it's certainly better than what we did get.

 

[Silvercrest]

They also know the establishment of the clone army is a setup and that someone did it under the table, for unknown reasons.

They were told it was ordered by a jedi master of the council. They didnt know it was set up.

They were told a Jedi master ordered it, apparently without telling anyone and for unknown reasons. And in the meantime, someone tried to bury the project without cancelling it, and the Jedi master wound up conveniently dead. What did they think this army was really going to be used for? If that doesn't scream "SETUP", it should at least give them pause before they trust their lives to this army.

Anyone with a lick of sense could put together that someone is manipulating both sides to artificially escalate the conflict, and that it's probably the Sith.

Where is the evidence? Jango is dead. The only connection was that he was a hired gun for the separatists. Thats tenuous evidence seeing how he was a Bounty Hunter who worked for the highest bidder.

It's more than that. Jango jumped directly from Kamino to Geonosis to report directly to the leader of the Separatists. The only way that makes sense is if the operations on Kamino and Geonosis are connected somehow. Remember, I'm not saying the heroes should automatically recognize the conspiracy, I'm just saying they should have seen some of these connections and recognized that something bigger was going on before just charging into war. And that it was possible to place the Sith in it.

And yeah, Jango wound up dead, but why was he there in the first place? And what if the Jedi captured him instead of killing him? He should never have known he was working for Dooku at all. No known connection to Dooku, no reason to go to Geonosis and nearly blow everything, and a conspiracy that runs much more smoothly.

From there it would not be a big leap to finger Palpatine as the person who gains the most by this whole thing.

But he isn't the only one who stands to gain. Don't forget the corporations. Or the Jedi. Or the Kamino Aliens. Or the planets left in the Republic whose voting powers have increased now that a good chunk has seceded.

See the evidence pinning it on Palpatine was at best tenuous and the fact that the jedi couldn't detect him in the Force also played a part in fooling them.

Okay, perhaps I'm pushing the point here. But the planets with increased voting apparently let themselves get railroaded into voting for a Chancellor with emergency powers. The corporations don't gain anything except a hot war instead of a cold one. I guess the Kamino aliens are a good candidate, since they can generate more business for themselves. And I don't see what the Jedi gain at all.

Meanwhile Palpatine marches into his conveniently newly-empowered post with a serene smile on his face and immediately takes command of this new army without any apparent concern over where it came from. That should have raised a few eyebrows right there.

 

[Stone_Cold_Sisko]

The droids were really really lame enemies. As were the Fu Manchu Nimeoudians (sp?).

The "Separatists" (oh noes, they want to seperate... SO TERRIBLE!)

Honestly I wish they had never established the stupid rule of 2 and had the enemy be the ACTUAL SITH.

Armies of actual Sith battling Jedi and Republic, in an INVASION. Clones are grown to battle them because the Sith are killing TOO MANY people and WINNING. Then, not only does Palpatine conquer the Republic from within, he uses the war to wipe out all of the competing Sith, and uses propoganda to push the whole "Sith and Jedi are the same, the Jedi are a Sith sleeper force and tried to kill me".

 

[The Squire of Gothos]

This is a pretty good point. Why only one genetic source? Perhaps it comes down to the cost of having to genetically alter the DNA from the source, making multiple sources prohibitive? But even if that were the case, it ought to have been explained in the films somewhere.

As an aside, I had fanwanked that away as some sort of measure to allow the Emperor to control them all, cloned with something about them that leaves them susceptible to his influence through the Force.

Anything that was better than just ordering the Clones to turn on the Jedi at the drop of a hat.

 

[Hound of UIster]

What did they think this army was really going to be used for?

A potential war since the TF had already tried to flex its muscle with its battle droid army. It doesn't take a visionary to see that the Jedi would be outmatched in the near future with the escalation.

It's more than that. Jango jumped directly from Kamino to Geonosis to report directly to the leader of the Separatists.

Jango was an independent contractor, he was given the job the same reason he was selected for being the source of the clones namely because he was very good at what he was doing.

No known connection to Dooku, no reason to go to Geonosis and nearly blow everything

Dooku gave him money to kill Amidala. There is the connection right there.

Okay, perhaps I'm pushing the point here. But the planets with increased voting apparently let themselves get railroaded into voting for a Chancellor with emergency powers.

They get to drive the Republic in whatever direction they want without the opposition from those who left.

The corporations don't gain anything except a hot war instead of a cold one.

They become the governing council for a new galactic state.

And I don't see what the Jedi gain at all.

More military power. They become generals with clones under them.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

They were told a Jedi master ordered it, apparently without telling anyone and for unknown reasons. And in the meantime, someone tried to bury the project without cancelling it, and the Jedi master wound up conveniently dead. What did they think this army was really going to be used for? If that doesn't scream "SETUP", it should at least give them pause before they trust their lives to this army.

You can argue till you're blue in the face whether the PT plotline makes sense from some viewpoint or other, but the main problem with it is that it's needlessly convoluted and doesn't feel "organic," like something that would emerge naturally from a bunch of people all jockeying for power or whatever their agenda might be.

It's too much just one guy behind the scenes pulling all the strings, and that's much less interesting than a scenario that emerges unpredictably from various forces in opposition to each other, because it lacks dramatic tension. The PT boils down to Watch Palps Make Fools of the Entire Galaxy. Eh. And Palps isn't even supposed to be the main character!!!

Remember, I'm not saying the heroes should automatically recognize the conspiracy, I'm just saying they should have seen some of these connections and recognized that something bigger was going on before just charging into war.

The heroes should have at least been given a chance not to look like morons. That's part of the contrived feel of the plot - whether or not the Jedi should have figured something out, they weren't allowed to figure anything out. Where's the fun in that? How about having them almost figure something out? Or Anakin figures everything out but then decides he's not going to warn the Jedi because he wants to turn the situation to his advantage because he's halfway to the dark side already? There needs to be some sense of tension and anticipation, so the whole thing doesn't fall so flat like it did.

There are any number of scenarios that could be devised that allow a war to break out that Palps can take advantage of, in order to destroy the Jedi, that don't need to be convoluted, contrived, or devoid of dramatic tension.

 

[Caliburn24]

Well frankly, the whole prequel concept pretty much drains all dramatic tension. We knew what was going to happen.

Prequel...the one word and concept that I would delete from Hollywood's vocabulary.

Strike that, add "Reboot" to that list as well.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Eh ... people knew what was going to happen by the end of Titanic, and plenty of people experienced enough dramatic tension to return to the theaters. A prequel does not preclude dramatic tension. Heck, if you've ever watched a movie (or read a book or played a video game) twice, it's probably because it was fun enough (there was enough tension in the experience), despite knowing the outcome. The PT was not doomed to failure (from a dramatic tension standpoint) from the start. The criticisms are with the execution of the trilogy -- not from deciding to do one in the first place.

 

[Caliburn24]

Actually a prequel does drain dramatic tension. How can it not?

Was there one moment in the PT that came even remotely close to that "I am your father" moment in Empire? Hell no.

Going into a prequel is like going into a movie with spoilers already revealed in your mind.

Aside from Shakespeare no prequel has ever surpassed the original story.

As to Titanic, we knew the ship would sink, we did not know what would happen to the characters. Something we very much did know in the PT.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

Actually a prequel does drain dramatic tension. How can it not?

Was there one moment in the PT that came even remotely close to that "I am your father" moment in Empire? Hell no.

Going into a prequel is like going into a movie with spoilers already revealed in your mind.

Aside from Shakespeare no prequel has ever surpassed the original story.

As to Titanic, we knew the ship would sink, we did not know what would happen to the characters. Something we very much did know in the PT.

These statements ignore far too many films to make any sense.

Did Apollo 13 manage to generate dramatic tension for plenty of viewers? Yes. Did some of those those viewers already know the fates of everyone involved? Absolutely. Did The Lord of the Rings films generate dramatic tension for plenty of viewers? Yes. Did some of those viewers already know the fates of everyone involved? Absolutely. To name just a few. And that doesn't factor in the countless audiences who watched a movie more than once, and found dramatic tension the second time around. Are you saying that you've never watched a film more than once? Ever? Or that you have done so and never enjoyed the experience? Found "all dramatic tension" drained from the film? How many times have you watched each film of the OT? Just once?

Fact is, even when an audience already knows the general story and character outcomes, a movie can still generate dramatic tension -- provided it properly executes its story. A prequel is fundamentally no different. Sure, we already knew where Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda and Sidious would end up. But unless you were privy to spoilers, you had no specific idea how they'd get there.

Which makes the PT no different than the countless films made in which audiences were already well-aware of not only the fates of the characters, but the general plot as well. Did all of those films fail to generate dramatic tension? Hardly. Some succeeded quite well, for plenty of viewers. But those films either succeeded or failed based entirely on how they executed the story. Which is precisely how the PT should be judged.

Did it fail to generate dramatic tension for you and a lot of viewers? Yep. But that's because of how the films were executed. And, as a point of fact, there are viewers (not many, but they do exist) who did experience dramatic tension from the PT. So to say that a prequel must, necessarily, "drain all dramatic tension" is, simply, wrong.

 

[Caliburn24]

You're right, execution does of course matter deeply. And that execution is what brings me back to rewatch various movies. The visuals, the score, the direction all that stuff.

But the story can only be a surprise once. And I happen to like story. I wish I could go back and enjoy many of my favorites for the first time over and over again.

What prequels do is remove surprises, remove creativity, and frankly limit what a story can do and where it can go.

Is it overstated to say that a prequel drains all drama? Yeah, I can agree to that. The fates of some secondary characters were up in the air in the PT for example.

But here is my point, and it is a simple challenge.

What story is made better by being a prequel? I honestly can't think of any such story.

 

[Greylock Crescent]

You're right, execution does of course matter deeply. And that execution is what brings me back to rewatch various movies. The visuals, the score, the direction all that stuff.

But the story can only be a surprise once. And I happen to like story. I wish I could go back and enjoy many of my favorites for the first time over and over again.

What prequels do is remove surprises, remove creativity, and frankly limit what a story can do and where it can go.

Is it overstated to say that a prequel drains all drama? Yeah, I can agree to that. The fates of some secondary characters were up in the air in the PT for example.

But here is my point, and it is a simple challenge.

What story is made better by being a prequel? I honestly can't think of any such story.

I get what you mean when you say "the story can only surprise once" and that prequels inherently "limit where [a story] can go." But I still disagree with the notion that prequels "remove surprises [and] creativity." I'll bet almost everyone was shocked to learn about the midichlorians. Lots of people were surprised to learn that the Jedi fought alongside the clones. These things were certainly surprises. And Darth Maul was nothing else if not creative.

It's much more challenging to do a prequel, I think. And the chances for failure are, I believe, much greater. In that respect, I agree with you. Given the choice, I'd probably write a sequel or a whole new story instead of a prequel.

But if a writer wants to do a prequel, that decision alone doesn't preclude a good, dramatic story. It didn't work particularly well for the Star Wars films. But that doesn't mean that prequels, by definition, cannot possibly work -- the Clone Wars cartoon series has provided its share of surprises and creativity. And I think it has, for the most part, added depth to the characters while telling stories that can be quite dramatic. But like anything else, their success or failure, ultimately, rest entirely on their execution.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Well frankly, the whole prequel concept pretty much drains all dramatic tension. We knew what was going to happen.

Not necessarily, but it's more of a challenge to write. And having a lead character fated to go from heroism to villainy makes it an even bigger challenge. But it could have been pulled off well, and considering the difficulty, pulling it off well would have impressed the frak out of me. I was really hoping it could be done. There's nothing I love more in a story than knowing the writer had to use real skill to make the story work.

Actually a prequel does drain dramatic tension. How can it not?

We knew only the most general outlines of the story going in, but not the specifics. There was plenty of room for surprises, or for the story to evolve with emotional nuances and ironies we didn't expect.

For example: let's say Padme manages to fool Anakin into thinking the babies died (to throw him off the scent) by committing suicide in front of him in such a way that he doesn't realize she's no longer pregnant and her body is entirely destroyed - which is pretty much the only way to guarantee he won't keep searching for the kids till he finds them.

Before that happens, she gives the babies to Obi-Wan (getting rid of him on some pretext, such as wanting to try one last time to convince Anakin to turn away from the dark side). Anakin chases Obi-Wan down, not knowing the kids are on Obi-Wan's ship. So the battle on Mustafar is not just Obi-Wan trying to survive; it's him trying to keep Anakin from finding the kids, who are still on his ship.

That takes the big battle on Mustafar that we all know about, and gives it a different twist. It isn't just light vs dark side of the Force. It's Anakin wanting revenge against the guy who he blames for the death his family (Obi-Wan must have poisoned Padme's mind against Anakin, etc.) vs Obi-Wan's determination to protect the kids and not allow Padme's sacrifice to be in vain. Because it's more personal, it's more emotionally powerful, not to mention ironic - Anakin thinks he's lost everything, but if he wins, he'll discover that's not the case.

But he doesn't win.

For that matter, nobody knew the specifics about why Anakin fell to the dark side. I certainly didn't. Was he evil to begin with? Was it something beyond his control? Did it happen ironically because he was trying to do something good? Did he overreach and like the heroes from ancient myth, was punished for his hubris?

There are all sorts of interesting ways to tackle this story. I just wish Lucas had chosen one of them. Of all the possibilities, was turning Anakin into a weakling/crybaby/idiot really the best he could come up with?

Lucas should have hired ten teams of writers - he could afford them - or hire 100! - and have them independently compete to sketch out the best three-movie PT story they could come up with. One or two would have come up with something decent, certainly!

I'll bet almost everyone was shocked to learn about the midichlorians. Lots of people were surprised to learn that the Jedi fought alongside the clones. These things were certainly surprises. And Darth Maul was nothing else if not creative.

And there you have the problem of the PT - those are all surprises, but none of them are good ideas. The midichlorians are too much Trekkian technbabble. The clone situation makes the Jedi look unethical. Darth Maul had interesting makeup and I'm sure he made a great action figure, but as a character, he wasn't worth zip.

What story is made better by being a prequel? I honestly can't think of any such story.

Huh? A story is either a prequel to begin with, or it isn't, so I don't understand your question. Anakin's story would never have been told if he weren't Luke and Leia's daddy. The kids are what made his story valuable and interesting. We wanted to know who he was, because we already loved his kids and maybe were a little concerned that bad things might be in store for them, based on whatever it was that happened to their father. The PT is interesting only as a prequel. But it could have been a great story, and a great prequel. It was not doomed through its prequel-ness, but because a whole lot more effort needed to go into the writing than actually happened.

 

[Gaith]

Here's an idea of a surprise that could have worked: Palpatine's actually a decent and conscientious but helpless guy, forced by mind-control to play along with the schemes of his "original", Sidious, who cloned him as a Force-less puppet. And the galaxy would never have to know; Mace Windu could find out, for example, only to be killed moments later. Voila - a suprise that (gasp) doesn't force the rewriting/selective ignoring of the OT.

Anyway, I'm pleased to see that only a quarter of voters favor GL's lame-ass Clone Wars formulation.

 

[Temis the Vorta]

Good idea - something had to be done to remove the deadening weight of the audience knowing exactly what Palps was up to from the start, and having to watch the characters be painfully clueless about it all.

 

[Silvercrest]

I recall back around the time of TPM, there actually was some speculation that Palps and Sidious were two different guys. I dismissed it as too convoluted, but maybe it would have been better that way.