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The Chalnoth (TNG: Allegiance)

MarkusTay

Commander
Red Shirt
The Chalnoth were an interesting species for a number of reasons, the first being there was absolutely no reason to invent these - we already had at least two species that fit the bill (Nausicans and possibly the Kzinti). They just needed a large, ugly brute-species that could possibly eat Picard and others if they got too hungry.

But in the course of a project I am working on, I discovered a rather annoying - and questionable - piece of canon: Picard has visited the planet of these 'beast men' before. Also, the Chalnoth seem aware of the Mazarians and their culture.
Memory Alpha has this to say - "The fact that the Federation had made contact with the Chalnoth and Esoqq's knowledge of Mizarians both seem to imply that the Chalnoth were a warp-capable species." :wtf:
Since when is the absence of information proof the information is true? Accepted Scientific methodolgy and logic dictates the exact opposite. A lack of information does not prove or disprove anything, and that episode certainly didn't even hint at them being a spacefaring culture, let alone civilized. Hell, that thing made Nausicans look like proper gentleman. Plus, the canonical entry says, "a people who have no laws or organized system of government." How would a planet full of savage anarchists build warp drives? There is simply no way they achieved that on their own.

If this was a one-time thing, I'd just let it slide, but it is the most recent time I came across an entry that states a pre-warp culture has had contact with the Federation and others. Now, it had always been my 'head canon' that some of these species were probably contacted before Starfleet officially adopted the 'Prime Directive'. I mean, non-Starfleet personal surely didn't worry about it, especially before there was a Federation. But Enterprise canon changes that, perhaps not fully, but at least enough for us to know they were borrowing the Vulcan doctrine in regards to First Contact before the formation of the UFP. However, even if Archer was 'the first' to do the deep-space thing, there were plenty of 'spacers' before, during, and after his time, so there's wiggle-room.

What do you guys think? Maybe a lot of these races were contacted by others first, who have no Prime Directive? And if so - if no-one else outside of Starfleet follows those protocols - then whats even the point? You aren't protecting that culture, you are really just leaving them wide-open to be taken advantage of by others (imagine first contact being with Ferengi?)
 
Picard did say he has been to Chalnoth before, which in itself implies they were warp capable since Picard is not one to readily defy the Prime Directive.

The fact they know of Mizarians really adds credence to them having warp capability.

It's certainly possible another power got them warp drive, given they have no government. But to be fair, Earth just got out of World War III, where most governments were gone or severely weakened. Yet Cochrane made his warp flight. It just takes one person to get the ball rolling.


I do agree that they were an interesting race, played really well by a really good actor... Reiner Schone. He's been in many things, including Dukhat on BABYLON 5 and a lead Kromagg in SLIDERS.

It would be fun to see one again...
 
Well, I just don't understand how a species with no history of an actual 'civilization' had warp tech, when far more sophisticated ones didn't (granted, the latter would eventually invent it). Kilngons in canon were pretty brutish, but nowhere on the Chalnoth's level, and they had a feudal society, and they never developed warp technology because of it. In fact, they barely had any tech at all (iron-age, maybe?) They backwards-engineered what they had from the Hur'q.

So if the Klingons couldn't manage it because of their 'savagery', then how am I supposed to believe barely sentient beastman could? And like I said, I am only harping on this because I've come across a few entries on canon species who did not have warp tech when they first encountered the Federation. This is why I am thinking that the Organians are a good (perhaps, bad, in hindsight) of a precedent - you may contact a less-developed culture if others already have. Archer risked it with the Akaali because the Malurians were already there, stealing their resources. In the case of Organia, the Klingons had already contacted, which means the Klingons have no qualms about contacting - and subjugating - 'lesser species'. Beta-canon (novels) also elaborated on the Hur'q, who had a large empire and loved subjugating other speices, including a few others we've come to know. This seems to be standard procedure for many cultures, like the Dominion and Borg. So really, its only the Federation who is following their own rules, and I would assume that if others have already made first contact, then there is no problem with UFP personal doing so as well.

I haven't gotten Chalna's location pinpointed yet (I will), but from the fact that it appeared on a star chart in Generations, and most of the action in that movie took place in that 'recently explored' region of federation space behind (to the galactic East of) Klingon/Romulan territory (Yeah... that's not belligerent... extending your own territory to completely encircle someone else's LOL), I would think that the Chalna were likely contacted by the Romulans or Klingons, or one of several other groups 'over that way' that have been mentioned in canon. I mean, the Klingons tried a land-grab with Nausica, so why wouldn't they do the same to the Chalnoth? Someone scarier than them? Occam's Razor should apply, and the Chalnoth could not logically have develop the fork, let alone warp technology.
 
Well, I just don't understand how a species with no history of an actual 'civilization' had warp tech, when far more sophisticated ones didn't (granted, the latter would eventually invent it). Kilngons in canon were pretty brutish, but nowhere on the Chalnoth's level, and they had a feudal society, and they never developed warp technology because of it. In fact, they barely had any tech at all (iron-age, maybe?) They backwards-engineered what they had from the Hur'q.

So if the Klingons couldn't manage it because of their 'savagery', then how am I supposed to believe barely sentient beastman could? And like I said, I am only harping on this because I've come across a few entries on canon species who did not have warp tech when they first encountered the Federation. This is why I am thinking that the Organians are a good (perhaps, bad, in hindsight) of a precedent - you may contact a less-developed culture if others already have. Archer risked it with the Akaali because the Malurians were already there, stealing their resources. In the case of Organia, the Klingons had already contacted, which means the Klingons have no qualms about contacting - and subjugating - 'lesser species'. Beta-canon (novels) also elaborated on the Hur'q, who had a large empire and loved subjugating other speices, including a few others we've come to know. This seems to be standard procedure for many cultures, like the Dominion and Borg. So really, its only the Federation who is following their own rules, and I would assume that if others have already made first contact, then there is no problem with UFP personal doing so as well.

I haven't gotten Chalna's location pinpointed yet (I will), but from the fact that it appeared on a star chart in Generations, and most of the action in that movie took place in that 'recently explored' region of federation space behind (to the galactic East of) Klingon/Romulan territory (Yeah... that's not belligerent... extending your own territory to completely encircle someone else's LOL), I would think that the Chalna were likely contacted by the Romulans or Klingons, or one of several other groups 'over that way' that have been mentioned in canon. I mean, the Klingons tried a land-grab with Nausica, so why wouldn't they do the same to the Chalnoth? Someone scarier than them? Occam's Razor should apply, and the Chalnoth could not logically have develop the fork, let alone warp technology.

Is the concept of the Klingons reverse-engeneering the warp drive from the Hur'q really Alpha canon ?
Memory Alpha seems to suggest that that idea only comes from the manual of a video game (so it's beta canon) and Alpha Canon only had the Hur'q invade and steal artefacts.
If that's true, then, as far as actual canon goes there is nothing to suggest that the Klingons didn't discover warp flight on their own, and that means the Chalnoth can too.

Plus with so many species there's bound to be a few with oddities in their societal and technological development; just remember the planet Data mentioned where a written language was the first way of communication, before verbal or sign language.
 
But in a broader sense, its not just the Chalnoth. We have seen in multiple episodes in multiple series that the Federation does indeed deal with 'less developed species' from time to time. Its not so much about the Chalnoth having technology, as it is about the probability that others have visited the planet before, and that basically throws the Prime Directive out the window. We have evidence, most notably with the Organians - if another spacefaring culture has already contacted a planet, then the Federation can do so as well, because cultural corruption has already occurred.

So on a galactic scale, with the shear number of species that have developed (or been given/stolen) FTL tech, who have no moral obligation to follow Starfleet's decrees, I would assume that outside of Federation space (at this point) most planets with intelligent life have already been contacted by someone. In the case of the Chalnoth, it was probably the Klingons, but it could have been several others. And inside Federation space, I would think that between the time of Archer's Enterprise and Picard's, many of the planets within the UFP had already been contacted before the rules were in-place. There's another odd example - the Ba'ku of planet Ba'ku are just a small agrarian society - a single village - on their own world, with NO tech. Starfleet (in secret) is dealing with them, because of a loophole - they are from another world, and this was a colony, but that was 300 years go. So, are they considered a warp-capable culture or not? And if the answer is 'yes', then whats the cut-off? 500 years? A thousand? I bet a lot of species had once been more 'evolved' but fell on hard times, as Earth almost had. That movie is probably a terrible example though, because the whole plot is... illogical.

And on the flipside, one of the conditions of joining the Federation is that the species had to have developed warp (or similar FTL) technology. So what if many species had gotten that tech from others? They never 'earned it'. What if we found-out that's how the Andorians got it, or the Tellarites? Do we throw them out of the Federation? If a species is 'unworthy', but Ferengi sneak down to the planet and sell them a warp drive, do we suddenly welcome them with open arms? The rules seem just a bit too... open to interpretation. Getting back to the Chalnoth, even if they have FTL drives they can't join the UFP because they have no government, AT ALL. The Federation is unrealistic, because their rules are even more stringent than the Vulcans before them - if the Vulcans had been part of a Federation (with the same rules) before meeting us, they wouldn't have been allowed to, because we had no unified world government. That First Contact is what lead to our unification. So how many planets have we doomed by turning our backs on them? That makes humans the biggest hypocrites in the galaxy, IMO.
 
I just realized something.

The Klingons weren't the first ones to beam down to Organia... it was Kirk and Spock. Their world was an important area between the Federation and Klingons, and their mission was to make them a protectorate so Klingons couldn't lay claim.

So really, the Federation were their first contact.
 
Just because a race isn't warp capable, doesn't necessarily mean it couldn't also be interactive in the wider galactic community

Contrarily, just because a race doesn't seem fit for the scientific knowhow of warp flight, doesn't necessarily mean they couldn't otherwise obtain it, like maybe Pakleds did
 
One thing I have always wondered.

We see virtually every noncorporeal/energy lifeform evolved from a very advanced technological society. Like the Ancients in STARGATE SG-1.

I would like to see one evolve to that state from an undeveloped technological society. The Organians seem to fit the bill, but we don't really know that.
 
It seems a bit implausible that an anarchic species like the Chalnoth could have survived long enough to develop (or even steal) warp drive.

Surely they would have destroyed themselves long ago? Anarchy is chaos, and chaos is death and destruction. So therefore, the Chalnoth must have some semblance of day-to-day order, otherwise they would have long since wiped themselves out.
 
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Totally agree on the Chalnoth - who's going to 'invite them to dinner' if they think you are on the menu? But as I said, my point is that the Federation doesn't really have a 'hard rule', because they break it whenever necessary (Organian, for instance - thanks for that find). The Federation are hypocrites, plain and simple - they follow their rules only when it suits them. We have tons of proof of captains ignoring the Prime Directive. Strangely, I think Archer may have never defied it, even though it wasn't a rule yet for him, but he's the only captain to stoop to piracy.

One thing I have always wondered.

We see virtually every noncorporeal/energy lifeform evolved from a very advanced technological society. Like the Ancients in STARGATE SG-1.

I would like to see one evolve to that state from an undeveloped technological society. The Organians seem to fit the bill, but we don't really know that.
Your name is 'Farscape' and we're discussing Stargate on a ST forum... I LOVE nerdom. LOL

I got one from Stargate thats even better than the Organians - the Nox. They are 'ancients', and yet live a peaceful agrarian (one might say 'primitive') lifestyle. They know how to do techy things, but they eschew doing them. And like other ancients, can 'ascend' (Q/Douwd/Prophet/Metron, etc., style), if they choose to, which they hadn't yet. In Scify, one of the running tropes is a 'civilization that had tech but gave it up to contemplate stuff'.
 
True about the Nox. But I was thinking more along the lines of never having become technologically developed but still able to evolve into noncorporeal/energy beings.

And yes, I have very wide interest in terms of shows... the ones you mentioned, BABYLON 5, ANDROMEDA, THE X-FILES, FIRST WAVE, BSG, SLIDERS, SEAQUEST, DARK SKIES, THE DEAD ZONE, STAR WARS (movies)... the list is probably around 100-200 genre shows.
 
The Nox seem to keep their advanced tech confined to floating cities while allowing the environment below to flourish.
 
The Nox seem to keep their advanced tech confined to floating cities while allowing the environment below to flourish.

Plus..from what I've seen of them, which isn't much because I never was a Star Gate fan, they also liked to portray themselves and their powers as weaker and more primitive than they actually were.
 
They do. The Nox are very much against active aggression. They rely almost entirely on their power of invisibility and healing.

They can also apparently teleport objects ("Enigma"), teleport living beings ("Pretense") and perform limited mind-reading/empathy ("The Nox").
 
Regarding the Chalnoth...
1. They stole warp tech, like the Pakleds did. Or the future Terrans, in "Through a Mirror Darkly".
2. They developed warp tech, then had a Rome-level cultural collapse (but kept some tech facilities operational).
3. There were multiple parallel cultures, at least one of which was civilized enough to develop tech. The description we got concerned most of them, not all
 
Yes, those are all reasons, but then do they actually qualify as a species that the Federation would contact? The rules are very grey on that area - They probably didn't develop their own warp technology, AND they certainly aren't a cohesive, one-government society (just the opposite). And yet, despite defying the two most basic rules of contact, Pikard said he visited their world. Why? They have a great night life? Were there some old things for him to dig up? Obviously he wasn't there to offer them membership into the UFP. It just feels contrived.

And yes, I have very wide interest in terms of shows... the ones you mentioned, BABYLON 5, ANDROMEDA, THE X-FILES, FIRST WAVE, BSG, SLIDERS, SEAQUEST, DARK SKIES, THE DEAD ZONE, STAR WARS (movies)... the list is probably around 100-200 genre shows.
I'm putting together a map/setting just for fun right now, which started out as three settings, and as of now I have well over 300 franchises before I stopped counting. And Farscape has actually been one of the hardest to reconcile. Not so much the background - 'space empires' with Peacekeepers is easy - they're a dime-a-dozen. Hell, they even blended with Lexx perfectly (both groups escaped and stole bio-tech ships {Leviathans} at the same time). But those aliens... why would things evolve that way? That went full-on weird, which don't get me wrong, was cool AF, but trying to make logical sense of how those came to be. And don't even get me started on using oil to power energy weapons.

But I love scify (and fantasy, and comics, etc.), so I love it all, even the funky stuff. Thats what makes it special. Cheers
 
I feel like the Klingons get flanderized a lot. They're every bit as technologically advanced as the Federation and undoubtedly have scientists and engineers just as good because that's how you build an interstellar Empire. Rome had really good soldiers but you also need guys to build the aqueducts and farm the land.

Mind you, I don't have any problem with the idea that the Chanloth are a nasty brutish warrior society because those would undoubtedly see the benefit of starships too.
 
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