The Celtris III Covert Mission

[Mojochi]

No disagreement there. But the poor showing of Riker again makes in-universe sense.

The Cardassians could have targeted just about anybody when luring a Starfleet agent into their territory; Picard's supersecret command codes didn't appear to play much of a role in the eventual invasion or anything. Yet Obsidian Order experts no doubt had Riker's number down pat, too, and chose to target this ideal combo of a) a useful CO who b) has plenty of unique skills that could be exploited in baiting the trap and who c) will be missed by a hotheaded simpleton of a first officer. They could shop for a and b on just about any starship, but the Enterprise offered them c, too.

It would have been nice for Riker to make a bigger recovery of hero status at the end of the adventure, crushing the Cardassian offensive with his wits rather than just his flying skills. But the plot didn't really need that, and TNG didn't really need a superhero Riker who can do no wrong.

Timo Saloniemi

Actually... I totally agree with everything you just posted lol.

If they're targeting Picard, then it's fair to assume they could be targeting & gathering intel on the whole Enterprise crew, though they couldn't have totally known Nechayev would send the Enterprise, & they certainly never expected Jellico. Given Picard's specialty here, they probably would've just assumed the Enterprise, commanded BY Picard would fall into the trap, which stands to reason, because I'm pretty sure they probably got a grudge against him, for not getting their way with the Phoenix incident OR the Orta scam.

So they're like... #1, We don't like Picard for getting in our way too often. #2 he's maybe got some intel on an area we want back, though even if we don't extract it, it hardly matters to our overall plan, & he's still useful as a bargaining chip at the negotiating table, once we have him. #3 he's one of their best & brightest. Him & his ship are like the patron saints of the fleet. Who better to knock down a peg or two & demoralize Starfleet? #4 he's got a 1st officer who is sort of a soft spot when it comes to the old man (See also Time's Arrow, Darmok, BoBW, etc...)

If they'd caught wind of that last thing, he'd be the perfect chump to play against a captain we're holding, & unfortunately had he been given the chance, would likely have gotten played like a fiddle. It's the fact that he is shown to be stupid enough to fall into that trap, hook, line & sinker that's a tough sell, but like I've said, sometimes, he actually is pretty gullible, so it's not completely out of character either

I do agree, that it was pretty sad that his competency as a commander (Not just a pilot) doesn't get any kind of redemption, after all that. The plot didn't need it, but his character sure did imho. Like maybe while he was in the mine field, he could've found Picard himself or something. I guess that would've taken too much run time in the episode though

The irony is, Gul Madred really isn't doing much in this episode for anything important. He's kind of a pathetic figure of an ex-interrogator, who's basically just been tasked with torturing someone, for no reason except he's the guy who we get to torture people, for something he probably doesn't have anyhow, & it doesn't even matter whether he gets it... which he doesn't. Quite the opposite lol

 

[Noname Given]

No disagreement there. But the poor showing of Riker again makes in-universe sense.

The Cardassians could have targeted just about anybody when luring a Starfleet agent into their territory; Picard's supersecret command codes didn't appear to play much of a role in the eventual invasion or anything. Yet Obsidian Order experts no doubt had Riker's number down pat, too, and chose to target this ideal combo of a) a useful CO who b) has plenty of unique skills that could be exploited in baiting the trap and who c) will be missed by a hotheaded simpleton of a first officer. They could shop for a and b on just about any starship, but the Enterprise offered them c, too.

It would have been nice for Riker to make a bigger recovery of hero status at the end of the adventure, crushing the Cardassian offensive with his wits rather than just his flying skills. But the plot didn't really need that, and TNG didn't really need a superhero Riker who can do no wrong.

Timo Saloniemi

IDK - It could have used a competent Riker who occasionally/actually FOLLOWS ORDERS and the chain of command (no pun intended here) without looking like a whiny little b*tch who wants to take his ball and go to his quarters.

 

[flandry84]

But Riker wasn’t Picard,Worf or Data so the producers weren’t too bothered.

 

[Mojochi]

^Riker did become the resident dump heap for general douchebaggery, in the last several seasons... insubordinate, mutiny coverer, twin basher, rape/murder accused, subordinate hassler, incompetent leadership, & all around dupe, that lets the ship get overrun with Ferengi, or a narcotic game. It sort of replaced being the weekly victim

 

[Prax]

Has anyone ever noticed that in the TNG movies Riker is always smiling... All the time, as if the director told him "when in doubt, just smile"

 

[Mojochi]

Has anyone ever noticed that in the TNG movies Riker is always smiling... All the time, as if the director told him "when in doubt, just smile"

I call that the Marion-Crystal Skull phenomenon. It's a culmination of an otherwise second rate actor having very little to act in the film, while just being happy to land a major motion picture gig, & that glee bleeding through in some of the picture. lol

 

[Prax]

He does that in TATV as well. What made me really notice/think about it was the new trailer

 

[flandry84]

Well seeing as he was the director on two of the movies...

 

[Prax]

Perhaps he feels especially awkward as an actor when he's also the director, or he just likes how the big beardy grin looks on camera.

He was a lot more serious on the tv show, for the most part.

 

[Mojochi]

At its inception, Riker was actually supposed to be the likeable, friendly guy, but as the show panned out, it was far more useable to have him be moody, objectionable, dickish, etc... It made for the show to have some conflict. Whereas, in the movies & now probably in his upcoming appearance, that's not the reason to have him around anymore. He & Troi are representative of a familiar face, part of the family, & since they don't much factor into any of the story, it's much more sensible to have him be amicable.. I'm sure Frakes his happy about it too

 

[Timo]

Certainly TNG lost its prime choice for a moody, distanced and, in all his enigmatic unpredictability, even somewhat frightening protagonist when Picard suddenly mellowed out. Moving the characteristics to another main character was inevitable.

In-universe logic would naturally allow for Picard to lose his initial reservations and get more comfortable with his posting. Conversely, Riker might get disillusioned with his job - but we don't really get an in-universe rationale for that. Yes, his career stagnates, but he seems to like it that way. Yes, he's occasionally upstaged, but this is not common at all. Yes, he loses people, but he seems to get over it, and he gains both a father figure and a working relationship with his actual biological father. He seems to have his choice of romances, too, even if he always chooses "pass". So what is it that's eating him? Perhaps the beard itches?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

So what is it that's eating him? Perhaps the beard itches?

My theory? Guilt & inadequacy issues. If you think about it, it might be feasible to assume he actually didn't earn nor deserved his rank/post. People had to die, for him to keep having a career. If he hadn't supported Pressman, he'd be dead, but in supporting him, he also kept the secret, AND probably used the reference to move up the ladder. My guess is, he wouldn't even be on the Enterprise without Pressman's name was on the resumé.

 

[Timo]

Makes penty of sense, the same way some of Bashir's antics retroactively match the big reveal about his Augment origins. Odd, though, that he'd have a couple of successful seasons establishing himself as the clever neo-Kirk who doesn't have to cope with loss because he always wins - and still come down with the depression later on.

It's a nice conundrum for him in "Chain of Command". Loyalty made him what he is now, in good and bad. Should he break away from another quagmire here, shifting his loyalties to Jellico so as not to eventually disappoint Picard? By switching daddies, he could perhaps delay the unearthing of the truth. But Picard has given him a positive loyalty experience, and that's just one count against the two of Pressman and Riker Sr. He would have his doubts about Jellico, then...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Mojochi]

Well, DeSoto probably found him Will-full at least once that we know of too. I'd say there's enough to point to Will learning a hard lesson about loyalty from the Pegasus mutiny, & much like Pressman remarks, he's deliberately the opposite of how he once was, so nothing like that ever happens again

Sadly, it worked against him with Jellico, but that's the flip side of the coin. You can't always win, trusting only your own judgment, any more than you can, always blindly following others

This could explain why he's so protective of Picard, & hellbent on being his #1, above promotion. In a life full of bad role models, he found only one that is good, & he needs it, because he doesn't think yet that he should be in the driver seat himself, whether he thinks he's still inadequate to the task, or guilty that he hasn't legitimately earned it

So he needs someone there to follow that he can bank on. Man, he needs Picard lol

 

[Noname Given]

At its inception, Riker was actually supposed to be the likeable, friendly guy, but as the show panned out, it was far more useable to have him be moody, objectionable, dickish, etc... It made for the show to have some conflict. Whereas, in the movies & now probably in his upcoming appearance, that's not the reason to have him around anymore. He & Troi are representative of a familiar face, part of the family, & since they don't much factor into any of the story, it's much more sensible to have him be amicable.. I'm sure Frakes his happy about it too

Riker was supposed to be TNG's version of James T. Kirk - and because he was the Exec. , they would avoid the "Hey why does the Captain ALWAYS leave the ship in command of Jr. officers to go on Landing parties?"... trope from TOS. And that's how it pretty much worked for the first two seasons until Patrick Stewart got bored and wanted to see Picard involved in the 'action' (whatever there was of it) a little more. So they did have Picard start going on Away missions more; which left the Riker character effectively holding the bag, and occasionally giving orders that he knew Picard would give if he hadn't spoken first.

But yeah, he was pretty much character assassinated late in the first season where his story for leaving Troi was: "I wanted to make Captain before I was 30..." - yet in the first season, we find he passed on the offer of hi own Command (the U.S.S. Drake) in TNG S1 - "The Arsenal of Freedom"; he passes up a SECOND Command in TNG S2 - "The Icarus Factor" and then AGAIN in TNG S3 - "The Best of Both Worlds", where yes he DOES get Command of the 1701-D; but has to get a kick in the pants from Guinan before he actually starts ACTING like a Captain.

Post "Best of Both Worlds" one had to just throw their hands up in disgust at any sense of logic WRT promotions and such becausae IF TNG was ever going to try an emulate a real situation, once the Fleet was rebuilt, ALL their senior staff would have either been re-assigned or given command of other ships because of all, the experienced officers/crewmen lost in the Wolf 359 battle, and Starfleet would want (and need) experienced officers to command/crew the young fresh out of the Academy replacements taht would be coming out to explore, etc.

 

[diankra]

You have to separate current ways from 24th century Starfleet ways. Present day, it's promotion or retire, but by the 2360s maybe Starfleet is happy to let a good XO stay there for decades, while promoting those who want up to captain.
Shelby wants to be a captain, Riker is OK to remain as Picard's first officer. How that works for him if Picard moves on... well now!

 

[Mojochi]

You have to separate current ways from 24th century Starfleet ways. Present day, it's promotion or retire, but by the 2360s maybe Starfleet is happy to let a good XO stay there for decades, while promoting those who want up to captain.
Shelby wants to be a captain, Riker is OK to remain as Picard's first officer. How that works for him if Picard moves on... well now!

I don't know how happy I'd say they seem with it. I'd phrase it more like "willing to tolerate it". It does seem like they really wanted him to move up, & when he didn't, he kind of fell out of favor for a while

 

[Dukhat]

Here’s what I don’t understand: why send Picard and Crusher on a covert infiltration mission when Section 31 could have just sent operatives of their own?

Oh, yeah, I forgot: Because Section 31 wasn’t invented yet.

 

[DonIago]

S31 probably knew it was a trap and would have intervened if and when Jellico managed to screw things up badly enough that a war seemed imminent.

 

[Prax]

S31 doesn't worry about border wars