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The Captain Edward Jellico Appreciation Society Thread!

In your opinion was Jellico a good or a bad Captain?


  • Total voters
    76
- this was a temporary assignment for him
No it wasn't. Certainly, no one was treating it that way. Picard was being sent on a spy mission that had every likelihood of being a trap. What happened to Picard was always a very strong possibility. 9 times out of 10, Picard dies. Jellico stays in command & maybe goes to war.
While there is a need to establish a clear leadership, redesigning the whole organizational culture during a crisis is something of a tower of mashed potatoes.
That's a bit of a stretch. Making everyone work extra hard, (because it's a crisis) & adding an additional shift is hardly redesigning the whole organizational culture. It's just altering the workflow. The main complaint against it was that it would cause unspecified interim staffing issues. (i.e. some folks might have to stay up past their bedtime, which was going to be happening anyway)
Even broken clocks are right twice a day. He got lucky
Picard's never gotten lucky? Never made unreasonable demands? Hardly. He just gets the benefit of the doubt, because we've come to respect & sympathize with him. Jellico was afforded no such luxury by his superiors. He was always going to be the replacement no one wanted, in a mission few or none could complete, under the circumstances.

The general concensus against Jellico seems to be that if he'd just let everyone keep doing things their way, the mission could go smoother, because we'd not dislike him as much. That's not how any of this works at all.

It was an unnecessary shakeup
I'd like to know what data you're basing that on. It's entirely possible that everything he ordered was absolutely necessary, to the successful completion of his unpleasant & unusual mission. I'd like to believe he briefed his superiors on how he'd proceed before he even took command, & they approved. He certainly knew everything he needed to know, the minute he stepped on board.

He's very likely not there doing these things because he asked for it. Wouldn't it make sense that he'd prefer this mission went to his seasoned ship & crew? They tell this man that this is his job & this is stuff he says needs to be done to do it. Being he's the captain, you are expected to assume he knows why it's required. You don't have to know why. Often you won't. It may not be as nice, but you just have to do. If you're truly the best crew there is, it's incumbent upon you to "make it so"

Heck, his whole attitude might just be because he knew no one would like being ordered around in unfamiliar ways. So he knew his only avenue (in a crisis) was to just play it strict. We don't even really know if that's the type of man he normally is. Put yourself in his place, really... in every aspect of his place. The chain of command is ALL he has going for him here. He has to push it. He knows no one personally, at all.

IMHO, He is a very good captain, who won the day, against every obstacle imaginable. If it's less than palatable for people, blame the administration that handed it down, not the line officer that took a verkakte job & did it. That guy you praise, like a miracle worker, especially if he saved your French ass
 
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It takes a great Captain to make a great pudding!
 
JELLICO: Will.
RIKER: Captain. Captain.
JELLICO: I believe we're scheduled to arrive at the Cardassian border during delta shift. Please inform the delta tactical officer that I want to launch a class five probe just before we drop out of warp.
RIKER: I was actually going to talk to you about delta shift a little later, sir. Right now, gamma shift will be on duty when we arrive and I will tell Lieutenant McDowell about the probe.
JELLICO: Is there a problem with delta shift, Will?
RIKER: There is no delta shift yet, sir. I have spoken to the department heads about changing from three shifts to four, and they assure me it's going to cause us significant personnel problems.
JELLICO: So you have not changed the watch rotation.
RIKER: I was going to explain this to you after the ceremony, sir.
JELLICO: You will tell the department heads that as of now the Enterprise is on a four shift rotation. I don't want to talk about it. Get it done. Now that means delta shift will be due to come on duty in two hours. I expect you to have it fully manned and ready when it does. Is that clear?
RIKER: Yes, sir. And sir?
JELLICO: What is it now??
RIKER: What would you like me to do with the bodies, sir? Of the 4th shift crew that will be flooded with plasma radiation because of the now-overlapping engineering maintenance and security cycles?
JELLICO: NOT MY PROBLEM, RIKER!
RIKER: No sir. Not until tomorrow's Emergency Board of Inquiry, anyway sir. If it's not too insignificant for you to attend, Your Majesty.


Well Mojochi, and others, thanks for getting through my posts. I really find all the opinions in this thread very interesting (and not unlike actual work experience in my career). If you'll forgive my piecework riposte....

No it wasn't.
Except it was, ultimately.

While you are certainly right about the uncertain duration of his stay, Jellico still seemed to employ the "microwave a turkey" school of cooking.

That's a bit of a stretch. Making everyone work extra hard, (because it's a crisis) & adding an additional shift is hardly redesigning the whole organizational culture. It's just altering the workflow. The main complaint against it was that it would cause unspecified interim staffing issues. (i.e. some folks might have to stay up past their bedtime, which was going to be happening anyway)
Oh, I liked my little Close Encounters riff. I was going to say "white whale" but I felt it was too "on the nose". :D Riker said the department chiefs said the switch would cause "significant personnel problems." What concerns me is that work "significant", when uttered by an experienced Commander, is probably something, I don't know, significant? As in, not achievable without other costs the Captain may not be aware of? I'm sure Jellico would agree with you, that they were whining about staying up past their bedtime. It was his decision to value their experienced feedback or not - and chose not to - without knowing the details, and not factoring the costs. Leadership? Kind of sounds like the opposite, doesn't it? Something more like...being in denial about consequences? Defeat that Borg cube, Will. Get it done, Will. Fix that engineer's eyes, Will. Recreate the Traveler Effect, Will. Get it done.

Picard's never gotten lucky? Never made unreasonable demands? Hardly. He just gets the benefit of the doubt, because we've come to respect & sympathize with him. Jellico was afforded no such luxury by his superiors. He was always going to be the replacement no one wanted, in a mission few or none could complete, under the circumstances.

The general concensus against Jellico seems to be that if he'd just let everyone keep doing things their way, the mission could go smoother, because we'd not dislike him as much. That's not how any of this works at all.
I agree with your point here; and you are right about Picard, who has had the benefit of earning the crew's loyalty throughout his ups and downs. Jellico did not have the luxury of rapport afforded by experience and time. And he obviously decided to account for that lack by embracing it and adding more bricks to the wall of his office. Riker also held that unfavorable position of having to replace Picard - and he did so without making the crew hate his personality - not his orders, his personality - and frank contempt for the crew he obviously saw as an indistinct blur. Had Jellico had time to earn their respect, things may have been very different, sure, absolutely. Obviously as a Starfleet Captain, he must be competent, right? But there is a fine line between command and belligerence. That line is made of cheese - sorry, trust. Not only did Jellico not have the luxury of trust - he let them know he didn't value their trust. And that is lethal in a leader of any tenure. Particularly as Troi knew of Jellico - he was not, in fact, even sure of himself. While Picard, um, was being tortured to death. A mere footnote to the Cardassian threat, of course. Never minding all that stuff Picard would fix later, like the past assimilation of the Earth, or anything. Some footnote, Admiral Jellico.

Also here, the issue is not the crew's willingness nor ability to adapt, to hustle, to get the job done. Their concerns were very clearly that the Captain was not utilizing them to the best of their abilities. Now that is something a board of inquiry can come to assess quantitatively - and with no bias of opinion at all.


I'd like to know what data you're basing that on.
No data, only the feedback of a crew who seem to know their jobs and are directly responsible for the execution of the mission. Not the old feedback of the other ships and crews the Captain was grafting onto a completely new ship and crew - of the best of the best, I might add, not a lot of underachievers who needed to be told when to swab the deck and shine their boots. There's a time and a place for that kind of shakedown - and the current crisis wasn't it. Jellico was sent in to command the flagship in a time of possible war; not to clean up Animal House. He didn't have the luxury or time for a blind paint-by-numbers leadership, but that is exactly what he decided to employ. "Give me the facts, you tools, and shut the hell up." To be followed by "So, you play trombone?" Like you give a crap. Spare us the same rapport-building machiavellianism that Gul Madred is, as we speak, employing on Captain Picard. Do you like long walks on the beach Captain?

It's entirely possible that everything he ordered was absolutely necessary, to the successful completion of his unpleasant & unusual mission. I'd like to believe he briefed his superiors on how he'd proceed before he even took command, & they approved. He certainly knew everything he needed to know, the minute he stepped on board.

He's very likely not there doing these things because he asked for it. Wouldn't it make sense that he'd prefer this mission went to his seasoned ship & crew? They tell this man that this is his job & this is stuff he says needs to be done to do it. Being he's the captain, you are expected to assume he knows why it's required. You don't have to know why. Often you won't. It may not be as nice, but you just have to do. If you're truly the best crew there is, it's incumbent upon you to "make it so"
I tend to agree with you here about the Starfleet Command situation. And yes, I firmly place ultimate responsibility for the results at their decision-making (and Necheyev's power tripping Picard envy). Though admittedly it's been a while since viewing this one. But being as how this is potentially a war situation, it is also time to affirm for the crew that the stranger now in charge actually knows his aft from a hole in the ground. If the Captain says "jump", a competent crew says "how high!" But if the Captain says "Flamethrow those orphans" does a competent crew say "what color!" In case any readers are wondering, the answer is no. No they do not. Fuel is expensive.

Heck, his whole attitude might just be because he knew no one would like being ordered around in unfamiliar ways. So he knew his only avenue (in a crisis) was to just play it strict. We don't even really know if that's the type of man he normally is. Put yourself in his place, really... in every aspect of his place. The chain of command is ALL he has going for him here. He has to push it. He knows no one personally, at all.

IMHO, He is a very good captain, who won the day, against every obstacle imaginable. If it's less than palatable for people, blame the administration that handed it down, not the line officer that took a verkakte job & did it. That guy you praise, like a miracle worker, especially if he saved your French ass

He may be a very good captain, but in this mission, he got results in spite of getting in his own way. That's not the same thing as giving the ship the best chance of success and survival. I daresay Commander Riker could have done better than Captain Jellico for this mission.

And again, in the end, Starfleet Command returned Picard 's French ass to the command seat of the Enterprise. Now, that says something too, about their tacit assessment of Jellico's revolving-door command of the D. Given the choice, as far as the flagship was concerned, Starfleet Command gave the man his walking papers.

Actually, yes, it is.
Except it isn't, ultimately.
 
I think he was a fine captain, between the poll options a good one, but overall the regular crew was also good. Jellico's worst act was relieving Riker and expressing fear/a threat of confinement too just over Riker arguing for a different course of action and suggesting he could be wrong and yet it was also really over the tensions and disagreements they had had before.
Jellico should be a lot more comfortable having alternatives argued for but he *does* have a lot more experience and insight into the Cardassians and overall he handled the confrontation very well.
While the regular crew were initially hostile, even somewhat unreasonably so, to Jellico's changes and different style they (aside from Riker) eventually adjusted to and worked well with him and in the mission.
 
Riker said the department chiefs said the switch would cause "significant personnel problems." What concerns me is that work "significant", when uttered by an experienced Commander, is probably something, I don't know, significant? As in, not achievable without other costs the Captain may not be aware of? I'm sure Jellico would agree with you, that they were whining about staying up past their bedtime. It was his decision to value their experienced feedback or not - and chose not to - without knowing the details, and not factoring the costs.
Except that everything indicates he's exceptionally prepared & aware of the material issues. The shifts were a decision he made while preparing his initial assessment. He knew every detail before he stepped aboard. He runs starship crews for a living

That Riker claims there'll be significant problems isn't pertinent. Of course he thinks they are significant. He delayed following an order over it, but Riker's perspective on what is significant is by default, lesser & less informed than the captain's. As a subordinate, you must follow the order. He just thought he had the leeway to delay until his objections could be heard. He was wrong. You carry it out, & do your best to compensate for your significant problems. Impending war is probably a more significant problem.

Not only did Jellico not have the luxury of trust - he let them know he didn't value their trust. And that is lethal in a leader of any tenure. Particularly as Troi knew of Jellico - he was not, in fact, even sure of himself
Context. Specifically, he wasn't sure that his tactic with the Cardassians would work. Heck, he expressed misgivings about the potential of success for the entire mission. Of course he's not sure. He expects war. That's not the same as being in total doubt about himself. There's no doubt that he considers his actions the best course

He didn't let them know he didn't value their trust. He let them know he had a set course not open for discussion, as is his right. You'll recall that the only reason Riker is given the shuttle mission is specifically because Jellico trusts Geordi's recommendation. He trusts them quite a lot for a man who knew none of them at all

Their concerns were very clearly that the Captain was not utilizing them to the best of their abilities.
It's not their choice in how the captain makes use of the crew. He is the man with the mission. They don't even know all the details

I daresay Commander Riker could have done better than Captain Jellico for this mission.
You'd be wrong. Riker tells you exactly how he'd react. He'd have divulged that Picard was acting under orders. Riker would have started a war

And again, in the end, Starfleet Command returned Picard 's French ass to the command seat of the Enterprise. Now, that says something
All it says is that since things have returned to the original condition. It makes sense to return everyone to where they were best served , originally. No one is saying Jellico is a better captain for Enterprise than Picard. This thread is about recognizing that Jellico was in fact a good captain of Enterprise, despite how the crew may have felt about him
 
A good leader inspires by example, not by coming down like a hard-ass. So yeah, bad captain, simple as that.
Agreed. The question I ask myself is who would I want to serve under. I definitely wouldn't want Jellico as my captain, but I did like the character as an antagonist. I think Jellico fans fall into one of 2 categories:
1. Ronny Cox fans, which I guess I would be under. He always has played great antagonists (IE Robocop, SG1, Dexter, etc). Definitely a very under rated actor.
2. Riker haters, who liked seeing Riker getting temporarily relieved. But really, these fans need to watch the other half of the episode, when Jellico comes crawling back to Riker, and then Riker tells him off with no comeback from Jellico.
 
After Riker and Jellico didn't get along...
Jellico is crawling to get Riker pilot the shuttle with the mines. Was he really the only one who could do it?
That's kind of awkward in part 2.
 
After Riker and Jellico didn't get along...
Jellico is crawling to get Riker pilot the shuttle with the mines. Was he really the only one who could do it?
That's kind of awkward in part 2.
Riker was the best. Jellico was enough of a professional to not play games with that, I'll give him that. I'm the Ronny Cox fan kind of Jellico person, though.

Jellico is a dick. He may be an effective captain but he is a dick. If people want to say he has a right to be a dick in his managerial style, that's fine, but he stays a dick.
 
...I think Jellico fans fall into one of 2 categories:
1. Ronny Cox fans, which I guess I would be under. He always has played great antagonists (IE Robocop, SG1, Dexter, etc). Definitely a very under rated actor.
2. Riker haters, who liked seeing Riker getting temporarily relieved. But really, these fans need to watch the other half of the episode, when Jellico comes crawling back to Riker, and then Riker tells him off with no comeback from Jellico.
None of the above.

1. Although I like the actor, it is the character of Captain Jellico that I am a fan of.
2. I love Riker, I just think that in the context of this episode he is wrong to behave the way he did.
I think that the writers of this episode wrote Riker out of character.

The only order he made that perhaps was a step to far in my opinion was ordering that the fish tank be removed from the ready room! Apart from that, he was a great Captain. ;)

RedecorateJellico.jpg
 
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After Riker and Jellico didn't get along...
Jellico is crawling to get Riker pilot the shuttle with the mines. Was he really the only one who could do it?
That's kind of awkward in part 2.
I think a "real" Jellico would let Riker rot, tbh and get Geordi to do it. So, yeah, it's a little contrived but...the showdown between the two is worth it. And simply from a dramatic point of view, it's cool that Jellico did get humbled a little bit.
 
The only order he made that perhaps was a step to far in my opinion what ordering that the fish tank be removed from the ready room.

In what way is that going too far? :confused:

As long as Jellico is the captain, he has the right to decorate the ready room however he feels like. The fish is Picard's thing. Jellico chose to put up pictures drawn by his son (what's wrong with that, BTW?). Neither is any more right than the other. :shrug:
 
In what way is that going too far? :confused:

As long as Jellico is the captain, he has the right to decorate the ready room however he feels like. The fish is Picard's thing. Jellico chose to put up pictures drawn by his son (what's wrong with that, BTW?). Neither is any more right than the other. :shrug:
It was not intended as a serious comment.
 
I'm not a fan of Cox specifically. He can be kind of cheesy often (Not here though) & I don't specifically hate Riker. I do think he was wrong & way out of line in this episode. There have been a few other times I didn't care for his behavior, but that gets him "Indifferent" status. I don't hate him, but I'm not a huge fan of him either. I do think they took his character into a very interesting direction hereafter, by dirtying him up quite a bit. That plus Frakes' performances made the character much more interesting than he'd been

The reason I back Jellico is twofold. 1st, the primary objection to him is he isn't nice enough, & people want to equate that with being a bad captain, without recognizing their own bias as fans of the crew. The knee jerk reaction is to side with the people you know & identify with. The true value of this story comes when you step back & think objectively.

If this mission had been given to Picard. If he'd been told to immediately take command of an unknown crew, by replacing a beloved leader, & change their entire charter, at a moment's notice. If he'd been given no time to familiarize himself with the personalities, & he too faced resistance to his seemingly inexplicable orders, we'd all be talking about what a bunch of jerks his new crew were, without blinking an eye.

This episode challenges you to reevaluate your loyalties. Yet, so many people never even try. Jellico has to be bad, because everybody I like thinks he is, even though they're really in no position to make that judgement of the man

Secondly, I love the balls it takes to write this story. Jellico isn't an antagonist. This story isn't about protagonists & antagonists. It's about perspectives, & the catalyst that drives those perspectives is the chain of command. It is the episode that most closely examines that idea. Star Trek so often presents us with command officers who are tyrannical, to the point of being villainous, & our heroes have to endure & suss out the wrong doing of their superiors

Not so here. Jellico is doing nothing wrong. His way is just not welcome, & yet, he manages to succeed in every way. If all he were was a tyrannical dick, he'd have pressed charges against Riker's insubordination. He'd have refused to let Riker serve on the shuttle mission. He'd never have dropped ranks & willfully ate crow for the betterment of the mission. That he didn't shows that he is not the bad guy. He is what should be expected of a Starfleet captain, & that should give us pause, & make us question or biases, & reevaluate our entire assessment of the man. I find it disappointing that some viewers never get there
 
^^^ This.
I think Ronny Cox did a good job playing the part.
Oh yes! It's fun to watch a really good SOB! And Jellico is a great character. Honestly I wish we had seen more of him, it would have been fun seeing crew reactions on a Jellico return for any reason.
 
Ed Jellico might have been a bit abrasive, but at the end of the day, he was right. His methods worked. River will have to live with that. I also liked that they wrote him humble enough to go to Riker when he needed him. If he had been totally unreasonable, as Riker had painted him, he would have been too arrogant and had Geordi pilot the mission.
As much as I liked Admiral Ross, how cool would the Dominion War have been if Jellico had been Siosko's flag officer?
Does Jellico appear in any Trek fiction?
 
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