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The Cage-WNMHGB-TOS -TAS-TMP-TWOK timeframe

Just discovered this thread and it got me to wondering. We know that TMP must take place at least 2 1/2 years after TOS/TAS. Is there anything that would prevent some additional time, say Commodore Kirk in command of a starbase for 3-4 years before moving to Chief of Operations for 2 1/2 years? That would give time for a 4 year mission of the Enterprise under a different captain and still allow the 18 months for refit.
 
As said, ST:TMP is something of a "floater". We only know about limitations on how early it can be:

a) Must be 2.5 years after Kirk last logged star hours, and he probably logged those till the very end of his TOS adventures.
b) Must be 18 months after TOS because the ship has been undergoing a refit for that long.
c) Must be more than 300 years after Voyager 6 was launched.

There is essentially only one datapoint that would tell us the latest date by which the movie must be completed, and this datapoint doesn't even come from the movie itself:

d) The uniforms seen on the ship and at Starfleet HQ will no longer be seen aboard USS Bozeman in 2278, according to the TNG episode "Cause and Effect".

Whether this means ST:TMP took place before 2278 is not set in stone, but it is certainly suggestive.

Since we know canonically that TOS ended in 2270, we can easily squeeze half a decade of adventures between TOS and ST:TMP and still have the refit - and possible other, earlier and smaller refits as well. And there is nothing to say the Enterprise would only have sailed under Kirk's personal command; additional in-between skippers are a distinct possibility.

Timo Saloniemi
 
Just discovered this thread and it got me to wondering. We know that TMP must take place at least 2 1/2 years after TOS/TAS. Is there anything that would prevent some additional time, say Commodore Kirk in command of a starbase for 3-4 years before moving to Chief of Operations for 2 1/2 years? That would give time for a 4 year mission of the Enterprise under a different captain and still allow the 18 months for refit.

It seems unlikely. The interplay between Kirk and Decker makes it seem pretty clear that Decker was Kirk's handpicked successor, and it just doesn't feel like there was anyone else in command of the ship between those times.

Also, most of the supporting cast has only moved up one step in rank since TOS. Given how ultracompetent they are, I don't think it would take them very long to rise up the promotion ladder, so the fact that they only got promoted by a single grade each makes it seem unlikely that many years have passed.

Now, VGR: "Q2" established that Kirk's famous 5-year mission ended in 2270, and TNG: "Cause and Effect" established that the TWOK-style uniforms were in use by 2278, the date the Bozeman was trapped in the Typhon Expanse. So TMP could hypothetically be as late as 2277-ish, which would fit the extra 4-year insertion you're proposing. But that would require the refit-style technology of a ship like the Bozeman to be already in use around or before the time of the Enterprise refit. And I've always had the impression that the Enterprise was the first ship to incorporate that new technology, given how long the refit took and how many bugs they had to work out of the new systems. So I have a hard time believing TMP could take place that close to 2278. I'm more comfortable putting it earlier (and of course in my published Trek fiction set in the post-TMP era I've established TMP as taking place in 2273).
 
Kirk may have handpicked Decker but perhaps Decker wasn't ready at the time. A second mission with Decker as Exec for 3-4 years would give him time to prepare for the big chair.

Uhura could have been on the second mission.
Sulu might have been teaching at the Academy while starting a family.
Checkov needed time to go through security training and he also would then have time to go out to another posting, perhaps a starbase or colony instead of a ship. Or a couple of years of shore and ship duty.
Chapel would need time to become an M.D. (apparent;y nurses are more like residents that R.N.'s as Ogawa did the same thing).
Spcok would have more time to purge his emotions, which really should be a lifelong pursuit.
 
Kirk may have handpicked Decker but perhaps Decker wasn't ready at the time. A second mission with Decker as Exec for 3-4 years would give him time to prepare for the big chair.

Except, as we've established, Kirk's "my five years out there" line in the movie argues against Kirk commanding a subsequent tour.


Uhura could have been on the second mission.
Sulu might have been teaching at the Academy while starting a family.
Checkov needed time to go through security training and he also would then have time to go out to another posting, perhaps a starbase or colony instead of a ship. Or a couple of years of shore and ship duty.

None of which would've precluded stepping up two ranks instead of one. Heck, Geordi La Forge was promoted two ranks in two years on TNG. Riker went from cadet to full commander in just seven years.


Chapel would need time to become an M.D. (apparent;y nurses are more like residents that R.N.'s as Ogawa did the same thing).

Chapel gave up a promising career in "bio-research" to join Starfleet and hunt for her fiance. It's possible she'd already done a lot of the preliminary work of earning a doctorate. And she had at least three years from the end of TAS to TMP to finish the job.
 
For Kirk "out there" may mean out exploring. He could be assigned to an older, inner starbase. Imagine a Royal Navy officer being assigned to a post in Scotland instead of Halifax or Newfoundland or Jamaica in the 17/1800's. They would be quite different situations. Nothing dealbreaking in this so far.

Do we know what Sulu's rank was in WNMHGB? The rank structure wasn't nailed down at that point if I recall. He could have been an ensign at that point and promoted to lieutenant when he was reassigned to the helm. He could also have been promoted to Lt. Commander at the end of TOS/TAS. That would give him two promotions in a span of 4-5 years. A few years after TMP, promote him to Commander. After all, we never did see any of the TOS crew's promotions except for Scotty in TSFS. We're not sure exactly when they took place, just windows where they must have.

In TOS Chekov was an ensign for three years since we know he was onboard in all three seasons.

In VOY Harry Kim was an ensign for seven years while Tom Paris was busted down to ensign and then back to Lieutenant in the same time. Generally speaking, you spend more time in each rank as you proceed up the ladder. Data spend three years as an ensign and then 10-12 years in the lieutenant grades.

One advantage to adding in a different mission after the end of TOS is it would allow you to break up the crew and show that they had some sort of career that didn't happen under Kirk's command. You could do the same thing between TMP and TWOK. By the time of TWOK they all could have been back at the academy except for Chekov. It really doesn't make sense that they'd spend most of their careers together. After the II-IV movies command may have just decided to keep them together at that point.

Bio-research doesn't necessarily mean medical degree. It's broad enough hat it could mean almost anything relating to biology. However, the medical staff does geem to be composed of either M.D's or advanced medical students. Even Simon Tarses was just a medical technician and not even an officer and he's now a CMO.
 
For Kirk "out there" may mean out exploring. He could be assigned to an older, inner starbase. Imagine a Royal Navy officer being assigned to a post in Scotland instead of Halifax or Newfoundland or Jamaica in the 17/1800's. They would be quite different situations. Nothing dealbreaking in this so far.

Yes, I offered that in response to your proposal of a second Kirk-commanded tour on the Enterprise, not in response to your previous starbase suggestion. The starbase idea is a clever one; I've just never felt that TMP implied a large passage of time since TOS. Aside from the issue of the crew ranks, it just seems to me that it's hard to reconcile Kirk's passion to get the ship back with the idea that someone else commanded it for several years between Kirk and Decker.

And no, there's no "dealbreaker" here, nor is there going to be. The film is ambiguous about its timing and I doubt there's any way to reach a definitive answer, except that it has to be between late 2272 and 2278. I just feel, for the reasons that I've explained, that it's more likely to be toward the early end of that window. It theoretically could have come later, but I think that assumption brings complications that don't arise if the film is set earlier.

Although probably part of the reason I've always seen it that way is that Gene Roddenberry's novelization makes it more explicit: Admiral Nogura promoted Kirk to the admiralty right after he brought the ship home from its 5-year mission (in order to capitalize on the positive publicity of Kirk's heroic achievement), and he had been an admiral for two and a half to three years -- whereas Spock had been studying at Gol for 2.8 years. In the novel's interpretation (which presumably represents the filmmakers' intent, since Roddenberry himself wrote the novel and produced the film), it's the 5YM, then an interval of no more than three years, then TMP. And since I read the novel before I saw the movie (as was the case with a lot of movies when I was young), I guess that shaped how I've perceived it for over three decades. I can see how someone who hasn't read the novel could find the timing more ambiguous.

Of course, Memory Alpha and the Pocket Books continuity mutually place TMP in 2273, so it's pretty much the standard interpretation. If you choose to put TMP later in your personal chronology or your fanfiction, you can do that, but no licensed work is going to do so.


Do we know what Sulu's rank was in WNMHGB? The rank structure wasn't nailed down at that point if I recall. He could have been an ensign at that point and promoted to lieutenant when he was reassigned to the helm. He could also have been promoted to Lt. Commander at the end of TOS/TAS. That would give him two promotions in a span of 4-5 years. A few years after TMP, promote him to Commander.

Well, yes, that's consistent with what I'm saying -- if that were the case, then it's more likely that TMP is only 3-4 years after TAS, rather than 7-8 years. The further you push it into the future, the more unlikely it is that nobody's gotten a second promotion.


One advantage to adding in a different mission after the end of TOS is it would allow you to break up the crew and show that they had some sort of career that didn't happen under Kirk's command. You could do the same thing between TMP and TWOK. By the time of TWOK they all could have been back at the academy except for Chekov. It really doesn't make sense that they'd spend most of their careers together. After the II-IV movies command may have just decided to keep them together at that point.

Well, absolutely, but there's plenty of room for that between TMP and TWOK, and between TFF and TUC. In TWOK, the idea was that the crew had been apart for some time but had reassembled for the special occasion of the training cruise which fell on Kirk's birthday. And in TUC, the idea was that the crew had again gone their separate ways sometime after TFF and been called back together for the Klingon peace mission (something that would've been made more explicit in the abandoned prologue sequence where Kirk gathered the crew one by one).


Bio-research doesn't necessarily mean medical degree. It's broad enough hat it could mean almost anything relating to biology.

I'm not saying it had to, I'm saying it could -- that it's possible to reconcile Chapel getting an MD with a short interval between the 5-year mission and TMP.
 
it's possible to reconcile Chapel getting an MD with a short interval between the 5-year mission and TMP.

In fact, Chapel/Barrett is missing from voiceover work for much of TAS's second season. (I think I worked out once that Majel was about to give birth to Rod at the time.)
 
^That could maybe work, since he was born about 7 months before season 2 premiered. I'm not sure, though, because 7 months is a very short lead time for an animated production. I know that Filmation had to produce season 1 in only 6 months, which is why its animation was limited even by Filmation standards and its voice work was so cavalier; but my understanding was that they had more lead time for season 2, allowing improved production values. Then again, maybe it's just that they had fewer episodes to do in the same amount of time.
 
If Sulu were an ensign in WNMHGB he could have been a lieutenant J.G. afterwards for a few episodes. There's obviously some time between WNMHGB and the rest of the series due to changes in the uniforms, crew and the ship itself. Also, in The Naked Now Joe Tormolen is shown as a Lt. j.g. with one broken stripe on his sleeve yet he says that Sulu doesn't rank him.

Let's see what we can come up with. Let's say that Sulu was an ensign in his first appearance and was promoted to Lt. j.g. immediately afterwards. That gives time for the ship to be modified and Sulu to be certified for helm duty and make the transfer from sciences.

Call it a costuming error that he's shown as a full lieutenant for his first few appearances (after all, Spock was referred to as Lt. Commander numerous times despite wearing the rank of a full Commander.) If WNMHGB and the refit fill up most of the first year of the five year mission (it was a long way out and back plus refit time) then it might be that Sulu was a full lieutenant for only 3 1/2 years (2 1/2 of TOS, 1 of TAS).

Promote him to Lt. Commander right after the Enterprise returns home and have him posted somewhere as second officer. He could just happen to be available at the Academy when V'Ger appears if he was there taking additional training, say, the advanced tactical training that Ro took.

After TMP and the shakedown Sulu remains at the Academy instead to raise his daughter. At some point prior to TWOK he's promoted to Commander, maybe doing a 3-4 year sting as first officer somewhere. We never did find out who Spock's first officer was at the time of TWOK so perhaps it was Sulu.

It may be that Sulu was much like Riker in regards to promotions. He was offered them but had other priorities such as his daughter and turned them down. The Excelsior may have been the last time they pulled out the big chair for him.

One other thing, we don't know exactly when Sulu was promoted to Captain, just that he'd been master of Excelsior for three years. He could have commanded another ship prior to TWOK.

Promotions also may have been slow in coming after ST II-V. Starfleet may have just decided to leave everyone where they were. They weren't punished but neither were they rewarded other than Kirk. The timing of promotions is vague enough that there's lots of wiggle room for any number of scenarios.
 
Well, I don't see how any of that pertains to the timing of TMP. But Sulu was originally supposed to have been promoted to captain of the Excelsior prior to TWOK; that plot point was deleted prior to filming, however (though it's still in the novelization -- so Vonda McIntyre had to do some retconning in subsequent novelizations to explain why Styles ended up with the ship instead).

I'm not crazy about the idea of Sulu being Spock's first officer during the Enterprise's training years. As you said before, it'd be nice to think that these characters had careers between movies that weren't limited to just one starship.
 
For Kirk "out there" may mean out exploring. He could be assigned to an older, inner starbase. Imagine a Royal Navy officer being assigned to a post in Scotland instead of Halifax or Newfoundland or Jamaica in the 17/1800's. They would be quite different situations. Nothing dealbreaking in this so far.

Yes, I offered that in response to your proposal of a second Kirk-commanded tour on the Enterprise, not in response to your previous starbase suggestion. The starbase idea is a clever one; I've just never felt that TMP implied a large passage of time since TOS. Aside from the issue of the crew ranks, it just seems to me that it's hard to reconcile Kirk's passion to get the ship back with the idea that someone else commanded it for several years between Kirk and Decker.

And no, there's no "dealbreaker" here, nor is there going to be. The film is ambiguous about its timing and I doubt there's any way to reach a definitive answer, except that it has to be between late 2272 and 2278. I just feel, for the reasons that I've explained, that it's more likely to be toward the early end of that window. It theoretically could have come later, but I think that assumption brings complications that don't arise if the film is set earlier.

Although probably part of the reason I've always seen it that way is that Gene Roddenberry's novelization makes it more explicit: Admiral Nogura promoted Kirk to the admiralty right after he brought the ship home from its 5-year mission (in order to capitalize on the positive publicity of Kirk's heroic achievement), and he had been an admiral for two and a half to three years -- whereas Spock had been studying at Gol for 2.8 years. In the novel's interpretation (which presumably represents the filmmakers' intent, since Roddenberry himself wrote the novel and produced the film), it's the 5YM, then an interval of no more than three years, then TMP. And since I read the novel before I saw the movie (as was the case with a lot of movies when I was young), I guess that shaped how I've perceived it for over three decades. I can see how someone who hasn't read the novel could find the timing more ambiguous.

I also read the novel and despite it being written by Roddenberry there's a number of things that don't seem to fit. We never saw the implants that Kirk uses to watch the Klingon attack for example. It may have been written by Roddenberry but, in the end, it's just like any other novel. If it's not on the screen then it's not canon. A similar situation happens with Jeri Taylor's Voyager books. Some parts are picked up but others are ignored and alternate versions presented on screen.

As you say, a lot of your ideas are based on nothing more than your perceptions, just like everyone else. As long as nothing violates the on screen canon then who's to say which version is more correct?

For me, having Kirk so desperate to get the ship back and being so out of tune with command implied a period longer than just 2 1/2 years. Nogura could have bee promoting Kirk from Captain to Commodore to Admiral to try and get him to channel his abilities to something he ended up being unsuited for. When V'Ger showed up and Kirk saw that the Enterprise would be facing it with a brand new Captain then he took the opportunity to push his way back to the center seat. It would have played out just as it did in the movie but it would explain Kirk's overhanded micromanaging and overreaction to Decker.

One other thing, it would also explain better how you could go from commanding a single starship one day to being Chief of Operations the next. Trek has the unfortunate habit of promoting people to very important positions without covering the intermediate steps. Crusher going from CMO to head of Starfleet Medical for example. Another case is Picard being offered the position of Commandant of the Academy. What about the people that are already there and have the experience in running such an institution?
 
Of course the novelization isn't canonical; that's axiomatic. I thought I'd said that already, but evidently it didn't survive my revisions of that paragraph.

And as I already said, there is no absolute "correct" version; it's ambiguous enough that there's room for individual interpretation. I've conceded that. It would be ridiculous to argue about it as if it were something that could be "proven" one way or the other. I'm just explaining the reasons for my personal preference -- which is also the official interpretation of when TMP takes place, but which is ambiguous enough that you're free to disagree if that's your personal choice. I just think it's less likely to happen later. You make some good points about the advantages of that interpretation; both positions have their merits, and both have their drawbacks. I happen to agree with the interpretation that most people have taken over the decades and that was evidently the original intent. That doesn't make me "righter" than you, since it's all imaginary anyway; maybe it makes me more conservative than you, at least on this issue. But it's my personal preference. And it's the interpretation I'm kind of obligated to favor as a professional, because of the existing novel continuity and because of the expectation on CBS Licensing's part that Trek tie-ins conform to the prevailing assumptions in sources such as the Okuda Chronology or Memory Alpha. (The Okudachron actually put TMP in 2271, but VGR: "Q2" invalidated that by putting the end of the 5-year mission in 2270. Some sources, like StarTrek.com, still haven't corrected their information, but Licensing permitted me to place TMP in 2273 in Ex Machina and its followups, and Memory Alpha places it there too, so apparently that's the official view now.)

Still, it could certainly be interesting to see an alternate version of events in which TMP took place closer to 2277, if the problems with that scenario were adequately addressed. There actually were a few early Pocket novels that seemed to make that assumption, disregarding Kirk's "my five years out there" line and telling stories that were set pre-TMP yet more than half a decade after TOS. (These included Pawns and Symbols and Diane Duane's first two Rihannsu novels, although the latter were modified in their recent re-release to be set post-TMP, conforming to modern chronological assumptions.) But I'm not sure if CBS Licensing today would approve such a premise for an officially licensed novel or comic.
 
I'm working my way through TOS with the remastered episodes and I just started Day of the Dove. When Kang first appears on the planet he says "Three years the Federation and the Klingon Empire have been at peace.". It got me wondering how much of the problems with fitting together the chronology would go away if we just got rid of the 1 season = 1 year that some people seem to apply to TOS. It worked that way in the later shows but TOS was much more fluid. The time from Errand of Mercy to Day of the Dove would only be two years if we applied the TNG time scale to it. Add to that the changes from the first pilot to the early production shows and I think it's better to take TOS as a single entity instead of season by season.

This side of paradise lasts over two months with the retreat to the planet taking 59.223 days alone. This may be the longest span of a single episode but I wonder how many others we can get a fairly solid idea on.

The consolidated continuity of most modern Trek lit works well in many ways but it also can work against creativity. When it comes down to a choice between fitting into the larger narrative and telling a story that doesn't fit I wonder how many people would try to wedge it in anyway.
 
If Sulu were an ensign in WNMHGB he could have been a lieutenant J.G. afterwards for a few episodes. There's obviously some time between WNMHGB and the rest of the series due to changes in the uniforms, crew and the ship itself. Also, in The Naked Now Joe Tormolen is shown as a Lt. j.g. with one broken stripe on his sleeve yet he says that Sulu doesn't rank him.
I like the way you think. ;) Sure, Sulu could be a Junior early on, perhaps with some sort of "frocking" or rapid but only partially official field promoting going on with his sleeve markings. That would only be expected of a ship that is returning from a failed mission to the edges of the known, having suffered casualties among the top officers. And while the very point of giving Sulu that nonstandard promotion would be to give him new authority, Tormolen could be giving the bitter commentary from the point of view that best serves his own interests.

It got me wondering how much of the problems with fitting together the chronology would go away if we just got rid of the 1 season = 1 year that some people seem to apply to TOS. It worked that way in the later shows but TOS was much more fluid. The time from Errand of Mercy to Day of the Dove would only be two years if we applied the TNG time scale to it.
...However, if we did apply the other TNG time scale where 1,000 stardate units equal an Earth year, then TOS would work perfectly! Roughly three thousand units indeed seem to fit in between "Errand of Mercy" and the late third season episodes surrounding "Day of the Dove". :vulcan:

If we did stardate analysis on TMP, we would observe less than 2,500 SDs having been added since the end of TOS. Unless we figured in the "missing digit", and assumed that there were 11,469 stardates between the TOS ending date of SD 5943 and the TMP date of SD 7412, not 1,469... An eleven-year difference would match the evidence fairly well if we wanted it to.

Timo Saloniemi
 
I'm working my way through TOS with the remastered episodes and I just started Day of the Dove. When Kang first appears on the planet he says "Three years the Federation and the Klingon Empire have been at peace.". It got me wondering how much of the problems with fitting together the chronology would go away if we just got rid of the 1 season = 1 year that some people seem to apply to TOS.

Then again, why assume he was referring to Earth years? Klingon years could be shorter. (Although the novel continuity has unfortunately established that a Klingon year is just about exactly equal to an Earth year, since the numerical difference between the "Year of Kahless" and the Common-Era year is identical in both 22nd-century and 24th-century tie-in fiction.)

Also, there are some cultures that count time differently than Westerners (or at least Americans) do, including the current year in their count of an interval. That is, they don't refer to the actual elapsed interval between Past Event A and current time B, but to the number of distinct calendar years overlapped by that interval. For instance, if something happened on April 16, 2010, that's exactly 731 days ago (since this is a leap year), so we'd call it two years ago; but that 731-day interval overlaps portions of the calendar years 2010, 2011, and 2012, so there are cultures that would say it was three years ago.


Add to that the changes from the first pilot to the early production shows and I think it's better to take TOS as a single entity instead of season by season.

Umm, the first pilot? "The Menagerie" established that those events took place 13 years in the past.


This side of paradise lasts over two months with the retreat to the planet taking 59.223 days alone.

You mean "The Paradise Syndrome."

The idea of spreading out the TOS era is not without merit, but it's difficult to make it work in practice. As I've said, the overall consensus is that we have only 5 years to fit all of Kirk's pre-TMP adventures into. The animated series is pretty clearly set after TOS, since a number of its episodes are sequels to TOS episodes and there are changes to the layout of the ship (a second bridge exit, a rearranged main engineering) and its crew composition. And if you want to include novels or comics, again, most of them are specifically written to take place after TOS.

Now, if you could justify an extra few years after the "5-year mission" to fit those novels and comics and maybe TAS into, that would be great. I'm sure you could make it work in a fanfiction context. But CBS Licensing wouldn't go for it. Everything pre-TMP has to go in the span of 2266-70, and just about all the tie-ins are meant to go after TOS ends. So the most feasible approach is to fit the three seasons of TOS into the first three years of the 5YM, leaving two years for TAS and whatever tie-ins you choose to count.


The consolidated continuity of most modern Trek lit works well in many ways but it also can work against creativity. When it comes down to a choice between fitting into the larger narrative and telling a story that doesn't fit I wonder how many people would try to wedge it in anyway.

There is certainly room with Trek Lit for telling stories that don't fit the primary continuity. A prime example is the Crucible trilogy by David R. George III, published to celebrate ST's 40th anniversary. The decision was made that the trilogy would be grounded only in the events of screen canon and would develop things in an independent direction without regard for the main novel continuity, so that it would be accessible to readers who were unfamiliar with that continuity (because such a special anniversary event could and hopefully would get picked up by more people than the regular readership). So there are a lot of things in it that contradict what the novels have established, such as when Admiral McCoy dies and what the nature of the Enterprise's post-TMP mission is (although it still puts TMP in 2273, because it still had to remain consistent with canon as CBS Licensing defines it).

The novel series by William Shatner and Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens, the so-called "Shatnerverse," also struck its own course independent of the primary novel continuity. In most of the books there's no blatant inconsistency, but the third Shatner trilogy (the "Totality trilogy") disagrees with the novel continuity on multiple points such as when/whether Bajor joined the Federation, what the nature and timing of the USS Titan's missions were following Nemesis, whether Kathryn Janeway was alive after 2380, etc.

And there are still standalone novels being published that aren't meant to tie into the main novel continuity at all. The recent TOS novel That Which Divides disagrees with my own Ex Machina in explaining why Chekov was never seen during the animated series. And a couple of years back, there was a Pike-era novel, The Children of Kings, that was set in an alternate continuity that didn't quite fit with either the Prime or Abrams universe.

The continuity among novels in the modern era has always been an option, not a requirement. It's something the novelists and editors chose to develop because they wanted to, and it's not meant to prevent anyone from striking a distinct course if that's what their story calls for. The only thing the books are required to stay consistent with is screen canon.
 
Then again, why assume he was referring to Earth years? Klingon years could be shorter. (Although the novel continuity has unfortunately established that a Klingon year is just about exactly equal to an Earth year, since the numerical difference between the "Year of Kahless" and the Common-Era year is identical in both 22nd-century and 24th-century tie-in fiction.)


Add to that the changes from the first pilot to the early production shows and I think it's better to take TOS as a single entity instead of season by season.

Umm, the first pilot? "The Menagerie" established that those events took place 13 years in the past.


This side of paradise lasts over two months with the retreat to the planet taking 59.223 days alone.

You mean "The Paradise Syndrome."

The idea of spreading out the TOS era is not without merit, but it's difficult to make it work in practice. As I've said, the overall consensus is that we have only 5 years to fit all of Kirk's pre-TMP adventures into. The animated series is pretty clearly set after TOS, since a number of its episodes are sequels to TOS episodes and there are changes to the layout of the ship (a second bridge exit, a rearranged main engineering) and its crew composition. And if you want to include novels or comics, again, most of them are specifically written to take place after TOS.

Now, if you could justify an extra few years after the "5-year mission" to fit those novels and comics and maybe TAS into, that would be great. I'm sure you could make it work in a fanfiction context. But CBS Licensing wouldn't go for it. Everything pre-TMP has to go in the span of 2266-70, and just about all the tie-ins are meant to go after TOS ends. So the most feasible approach is to fit the three seasons of TOS into the first three years of the 5YM, leaving two years for TAS and whatever tie-ins you choose to count.


The consolidated continuity of most modern Trek lit works well in many ways but it also can work against creativity. When it comes down to a choice between fitting into the larger narrative and telling a story that doesn't fit I wonder how many people would try to wedge it in anyway.

There is certainly room with Trek Lit for telling stories that don't fit the primary continuity. A prime example is the Crucible trilogy by David R. George III, published to celebrate ST's 40th anniversary. The decision was made that the trilogy would be grounded only in the events of screen canon and would develop things in an independent direction without regard for the main novel continuity, so that it would be accessible to readers who were unfamiliar with that continuity (because such a special anniversary event could and hopefully would get picked up by more people than the regular readership). So there are a lot of things in it that contradict what the novels have established, such as when Admiral McCoy dies and what the nature of the Enterprise's post-TMP mission is (although it still puts TMP in 2273, because it still had to remain consistent with canon as CBS Licensing defines it).

The novel series by William Shatner and Judith & Garfield Reeves-Stevens, the so-called "Shatnerverse," also struck its own course independent of the primary novel continuity. In most of the books there's no blatant inconsistency, but the third Shatner trilogy (the "Totality trilogy") disagrees with the novel continuity on multiple points such as when/whether Bajor joined the Federation, what the nature and timing of the USS Titan's missions were following Nemesis, whether Kathryn Janeway was alive after 2380, etc.

And there are still standalone novels being published that aren't meant to tie into the main novel continuity at all. The recent TOS novel That Which Divides disagrees with my own Ex Machina in explaining why Chekov was never seen during the animated series. And a couple of years back, there was a Pike-era novel, The Children of Kings, that was set in an alternate continuity that didn't quite fit with either the Prime or Abrams universe.

The continuity among novels in the modern era has always been an option, not a requirement. It's something the novelists and editors chose to develop because they wanted to, and it's not meant to prevent anyone from striking a distinct course if that's what their story calls for. The only thing the books are required to stay consistent with is screen canon.

Regarding the use of the word years, unless we're going to have every alien race call them "earth years" the assumption to the viewer is that they are referring to the same year that they themselves is familiar with. If it's not then we would expect the speaker to say "Klingon years" or "Bajoran years". Where do you draw the line? Do you assume that every time Kira says hour or day or year that it must refer to a Bajoran standard? It's part of the suspension of disbelief. We accept that these various aliens are not only speaking English but also referring to things in a way that we can relate to unless it's made clear that they're not. Having the Klingons speak in their own language or even using a Klingon word like Kellicam makes it clear they're not using human references.

Yes, my mistake in referring to first pilot. I meant second pilot. The hazards of posting online past my bedtime.

Ditto for The Paradise Syndrome.

As far as fitting in TAS I tend to assume that things happened pretty much like we saw but not exactly. In The Infinite Vulcan, for example, Stavos Keniclius did clone SPock but didn't make him 20 feet tall. It's not necessary to the story if he's simply normal sized. Also, why would a clone be wearing a Starfleet uniform? Some episodes would work pretty much as presented (Yesteryear). Others are more suggestions of how things really played out. (Did Bem's head and torso really float through the air like that? Were the tribbles and the Kzinti ship really pink or was that because the director was color blind?)

I find it amusing that so many people cheered the latest movie since it freed the story from a large amount of continuity and yet the novels have gone toe opposite direction, introducing even more continuity than was presented in the shows. As you say, not all books are part of the shared novel continuity but the majority of them are. One of the posters here has even done a flowchart just to keep things in order. An excellent piece of work, btw.

Both approaches have their advantages and disadvantages but it tends to lead to "This is the main continuity" and "This is everything that doesn't fit". You can't please everyone no matter which path you take. The tighter integration of the books may attract new readers while driving away others. Such is life. I just find it a little lacking when a book would have to be classified as an alternate universe just for taking a different but valid approach to how things played out. I'm a fan of a looser novel continuity. Let the authors tell the stories and let the fans figure out how it all fits together, much like TOS.
 
The continuity among novels in the modern era has always been an option, not a requirement. It's something the novelists and editors chose to develop because they wanted to, and it's not meant to prevent anyone from striking a distinct course if that's what their story calls for. The only thing the books are required to stay consistent with is screen canon.

I think of it as basically a courtesy to fans and fellow authors. I'll avoid contradicting an earlier book if I can, but, on the hand, I'm not going to tie myself in knots to accomodate two lines of dialogue from an old Bantam novel published thirty years ago . . . .

It's all about maintaining a sense of perspective where continuity is concerned.
 
Regarding the use of the word years, unless we're going to have every alien race call them "earth years" the assumption to the viewer is that they are referring to the same year that they themselves is familiar with.

I see no reason to confuse the specific with the general. I'm not saying anything about every case. I'm saying that in this specific case where a seeming discrepancy exists, it's possible to justify it by recognizing that there's more than one way to define a year. I'm talking case-by-case, not universal rules. Obviously any continuity as hodgepodge as Star Trek's is going to have inconsistencies, so it's more useful to have a flexible mindset and be open to alternatives than to cling to absolute rules that can't be adapted to the needs of a particular case.


I find it amusing that so many people cheered the latest movie since it freed the story from a large amount of continuity and yet the novels have gone toe opposite direction, introducing even more continuity than was presented in the shows.

Why is that amusing? Obviously different people are going to see things differently, as our own conversation makes clear. And of course the novel continuity has been evolving for over a decade by this point, expanding on the continuity among the shows themselves, particularly the precedents that DS9 and ENT set toward greater interconnection and partial serialization. But that's always coexisted with the freedom to do works unconnected to that continuity, whether in standalone or parallel novels or in the comics or games or whatever. The Abrams films are just a part of that broad tapestry, complementing the rest and coexisting with them. There's no conflict.


As you say, not all books are part of the shared novel continuity but the majority of them are.

By choice. And in recent years, I'd say the number of continuity-linked books per year has been declining and the number of standalones increasing, since a lot of the architects of the novel continuity that emerged in the 2000s have moved on.


I just find it a little lacking when a book would have to be classified as an alternate universe just for taking a different but valid approach to how things played out. I'm a fan of a looser novel continuity. Let the authors tell the stories and let the fans figure out how it all fits together, much like TOS.

If you're still speaking in the context of your model for putting TMP later, I've already explained that that isn't a matter of novel continuity, but of the official line from CBS. Even books that are specifically apart from the main novel continuity such as Crucible still put TMP in 2273. So if you're blaming the novels for that lack of flexibility on the timing of TMP, you're directing your criticisms to the wrong place. The novels and comics are contractually obligated to follow CBS's lead when it comes to Trek continuity.

Although, as I've already acknowledged, canon evidence about TMP's setting is inconclusive. So maybe CBS Licensing could be convinced to approve a novel or comic setting TMP several years later, if the story were strong enough to justify such a departure from conventional wisdom. But I don't know. You'd have to ask them.
 
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